Guide to Goth

We are talking about ancient history, architecture, literature, music, and subculture through the dark, and uncanny aesthetic that can only be described as Gothic. Join Dave and Greg as they discuss the origins, evolution, and modern interpretations of “Goth”.

Transcript

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Dave: Everybody. Welcome to the unconventional therapist! Guide to nothing. I am your host, Dave. I'm joined with my co-host here, Greg Aka, the dark one.

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Dave: How you doing, Greg?

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greg: I like that nickname.

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greg: I don't know if it's it really hits in

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greg: the nail on the head, but I think if any of us is the dark one, Dave.

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Dave: It's you.

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greg: You're darkness, Dave.

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Dave: No, it's you!

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greg: Greg's, you know, a lot of dark Greggs.

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Dave: Yes.

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greg: At least one, I guess.

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Dave: One right there.

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greg: Alright. Speaking of that, Dave, I think let's just get into it, because I you know, I hear a little something.

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Dave: Oh, boy!

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greg: Voice.

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greg: maybe like a raspiness

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greg: kind of erotic, if you ask me. But no, it's you you sound. Maybe you're a little under the weather. Are you feeling all right over there.

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Dave: Yeah, it's not a raspiness, it's a nasal nasalliness.

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greg: Oh, well.

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Dave: Which is.

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greg: Because I have that every day.

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Dave: I was. Gonna say, it's just more than usual.

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greg: Yeah.

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greg: Yeah. So, Dave, let me ask you a question, and you answer it in that nasally voice. What word comes to mind when I sit when I talk about like the Victorian era? Well, not just like

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greg: that's part of it, but like raw iron gates and Spanish moss. Now this. These are just my my thoughts before even doing any research at all. Weeping willows and graveyards and bats and cathedrals covered in gargoyles, red velvet

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greg: like this dark sort of opulent.

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greg: ethereal, aesthetic like. What are we talking about here? What would you.

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Dave: Dreams.

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greg: Oh, my God!

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greg: That's not!

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greg: Nope!

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Dave: Oh, my! Bad!

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greg: Maybe I don't know right. I mean some of those things red velvet.

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Dave: The way you were talking.

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greg: I feel a little rough.

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Dave: It made me very uncomfortable.

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greg: Sorry, but that's what comes. So you don't think of anything sort of

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greg: I don't know. It's funny that you say that, though, because I think.

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Dave: No, you're right, Greg. A word is coming to my mind right now. It is is that word Gothic.

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greg: Yeah or Goth.

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greg: But you know what's funny, though, Dave, all kidding aside.

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Dave: Yeah. Oh, God, what the heck was that?

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Dave: Yeah.

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greg: I can't. I can't help. But

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greg: I think that what's left out of this whole thing is maybe a little bit of

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greg: sexuality. I think that's kind of a part of it.

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greg: In a sense, I don't know.

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Dave: Why do you? Why do you have to always sexualize everything? Greg.

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greg: I don't know, man, it just.

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Dave: Every time you, every time you look at me every time you

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Dave: to me. Sorry.

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greg: I'm a gross person, Dave.

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Dave: You are! You're.

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greg: I'm a gross, and I'm a bad. I'm a gross individual, so.

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Dave: So what are you? What are you getting out here, Greg?

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greg: Well, I mean, I want to get into the whole Goth Gothic debate, and you know what's interesting to me 1st of all, and we'll get into. This is.

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greg: if you had to guess

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greg: which word, what's the predecessor and what it? What what came first? st Gothic or Goth?

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greg: If you had to guess.

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Dave: I don't have to guess, though I know the answer.

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greg: Oh, okay.

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Dave: So.

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greg: Before you did any research, what would you have said.

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Dave: I mean, I would have thought Gothic, because we think of, like

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Dave: Victorian Gothic era right.

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greg: Yeah. And then we think of.

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Dave: But I didn't know there was an actual

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Dave: Yeah.

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Dave: which you'll talk about. It is. It is the start of spooky season.

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Dave: So obviously, everyone knows that is a very exciting time of the year for me. I am sitting here feeling under the weather, but I'm still filled with joy. You know. I know I'm filled with joy because I'm drinking. Oh, man, it's all messed up in my camera. I'm drinking mountain dew voodoo, because that only comes out in the spooky season.

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Dave: and I am all jazzed up on mountain dews right now.

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greg: Yeah, you are proud sponsor of the podcast. It is not cause that would be.

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Dave: Not. But hey, mountain dew!

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Dave: I drink your voodoo every year.

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Dave: I'm always guessing this mystery flavor, and this year I'm going to take a guess. I'm going to say it's skittles.

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greg: And.

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Dave: Oh, yeah. Baby.

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greg: Taste the rainbow. Okay.

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Dave: And forewarning to all you parents out there. Tim Burton has make it been making your kids scoff for years.

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greg: Hmm maybe.

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Dave: Might be the originator.

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Dave: He might be the originating

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Dave: Goth baby maker.

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greg: Yeah. You know, it's Tim Burton does really just nail down this aesthetic. And it's almost like he does his own thing where it's

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greg: this stop motion?

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greg: Not not in all. Obviously not.

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Dave: And it's not even yeah. He does it. I'm gonna get into it later. But like

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Dave: Tim Burton, he's the man.

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greg: Either.

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Dave: Terry Goth.

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greg: It's awesome, right? So let's let me. Do you want me to take it from the top? Here.

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Dave: Pick from the course.

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greg: All right. So the origin form of the word Goth, right? Where does it come from? So we're going to have to go back a little bit, Goth.

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greg: you know. It might be familiar to you in a couple of different ways to me.

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Dave: Go on!

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greg: Well, I was never thinking of it in terms of this, but you know the Roman Empire. You've heard of it right, Dave.

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Dave: Oh, I think I've heard of that.

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greg: Okay, yeah. No. Well known. There were Germanic tribes that were a thorn in Brom's side towards the end.

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greg: and these are barbarians. Blonde hair blue eyed.

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greg: Barbarians make no mistake, which is not something you typically associate with Goth. I you know I'm just, from my point of view, right?

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greg: You would think like this is completely separate from someone who listens to my chemical romance with the dark eyeliner, and I'm not trying to pigeonhole here. But this is what the Goth is in my mind, right? So the Goth that we're talking about historically existed on the fringes of society.

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Dave: You already just made you already just made an error.

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greg: Did. I.

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Dave: Oh, yeah, we'll get into it.

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greg: Okay. So the I yes, musically, and all that right. And you're going to clear up all that. I'm more of a history situation here. So the Goths, the Goths that we're talking about. They they existed on the fringes of society, and, despite being.

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greg: you know, opposite to the mainstream, they would influence art, music, and culture

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greg: for years to come. Continuing now, obviously. So that is something that today's Goths share with the historical Goths. Right? It's sort of this like fringe

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greg: culture.

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greg: but still very

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greg: influential. Right? So

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greg: continue on with Rome. It splits into Eastern Western Empire, and

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greg: what happens? There is in the West the Goths and other Germanic tribes take over, and Rome eventually falls, and we leave the classical age and enter into the Dark Ages and dark being an important, probably the operative word there. Right?

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greg: So I know. And I'm going a long way. But this just hold on, because this is important.

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greg: Rome in its history, focused

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greg: with its art especially, and its architecture on realism and proportion you think of like the statues it's it's very realistic looking, unless I mean, not everyone has abs and everything. But you know what I'm talking about.

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greg: Proportion. Use the columns and you know, just really broad sort of

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greg: proportional structures. That was kind of their thing right.

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greg: But this new culture that's developing after Rome Falls is more focused on religious iconography and allegory. And

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greg: the 1st signs we see of this is in a building called the Abbey of Saint Denis, and this was built in 1137. So it's a long time ago, and

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greg: you're gonna know what I'm talking about. It's like that broad.

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greg: It's like the the

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greg: the stained glass, the huge windows.

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greg: the almost like skeletal when you think of, like Notre Dame, or any cathedral like this medieval cathedrals, you kind of have this open.

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greg: I don't know. There's this weird sort of

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greg: aesthetic to it that somehow, really it makes you feel in awe. And it's also kind of creepy. And this just

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greg: all throughout Europe, obviously starting in Germany, though, which is important. So this is kind of where the Goth culture starts, and it doesn't make any sense yet. But think, think about this

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greg: as we leave the Dark Ages right, and enter into the Renaissance. Now

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greg: the Renaissance is essentially a period. I don't have to get into that where like

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greg: it's, it's the rebirth, and it's the rebirth of Roman and Greek culture. People are very like revering this again. They think it's you know. We we made a huge mistake by leaving that behind. So in the same way, Dave, you and I would be called out by a millennial about like ankle socks, or, like, you know, we'd be called a boomer for different things.

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greg: A man named Giorgio Vasari writes in this book called Lives of the Artist. He writes

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greg: that he writes the word Gothic for the 1st time. That's the 1st time, and anybody have ever used the word Gothic, but the way he uses it. He uses it as an insult to dismiss this like

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greg: these, these beautiful cathedrals, this architecture that's going out of style, right? So

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greg: Goths

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greg: are drove the word Gothic to be.

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greg: you know, represented in culture, and

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greg: it represents, even in this, even in the architectural sense, it represents sort of like a so like a pariah, like something that

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greg: is outside of the norm, something that's, you know, separate and othered. It's it's very interesting. I think that's I think that's a fascinating explanation of how

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greg: the word Gothic came into the, you know. Vernacular right? What do you think.

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Dave: So. Yes, and Greg

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Dave: The word Goth itself was derived from where.

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greg: It's German.

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Dave: Okay.

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Dave: The. Have you heard of the Ostrogoths? Yes.

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greg: So Ostrogoths and Visigoths.

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Dave: Yeah, what? What are they all about.

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greg: It's sort of the one's a Western. So

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greg: The Ostrogoths were western in the Roman Empire, and then the eastern side there were Visigoths. It's not really super important. Yeah, but yeah, they're they're factions. And it's not just that there was like Franks. There's all kinds of tribes that you know where they were at that period in history like you kind of like. Look at the map, and their names are sort of still represented over there.

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greg: It's in. It's interesting, though. And I I think it's it's it's interesting that the

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greg: what we think of today as Goths

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greg: exist from these ancient barbarians

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greg: who's similar like, who kind of represented the same thing in society in a sense sure.

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Dave: Who invented the word Goths.

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greg: Who invented the word Goths.

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Dave: Yeah, what does it mean? And what does it translate to.

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greg: I don't know. You'll have, you must know.

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Dave: Moses.

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greg: It all comes back.

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Dave: And it translates to the 10 Commandments, go ahead.

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greg: I see. Yeah.

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greg: So this is good job, Dave. That mountain dew is doing you well.

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greg: I think

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greg: more important than like

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greg: the art, I mean, the architecture is

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greg: literature, and this is what really interests me is is the Gothic literature and the the

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greg: visualization. And what kind of images come to mind right? So

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greg: from that point, it's it was important to do all that sort of history, because from that point we we find ourselves in a place where

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greg: Gothic is lowbrow. Right? It's not high art. If you think of the way the Oscars treat horror now.

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greg: and the comedy, too. I guess it's sort of like that. It's not taken super seriously as an art form, but some of the best writers are writing it. We'll find out like later on right. So there's 2 really important places to start. One is this guy, Edmund Burke. He has this theory of the sublime.

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greg: and he argues that the sublime is our strongest emotion, and the sublime is something that's kind of hard to.

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greg: you know, really nail down as what exactly it is, but what he thinks it is, is, it inspires awe and terror at our own insignificance. So when you see something like

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greg: a mountain, you're like kind of struck by awe, and the reasons are complicated. Is it because it's huge? Yeah, is it because it's been there before we were and will be there after we're gone? Yeah, there's something that you can't really describe. There.

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greg: An example he gives is when, like you're writing a story, and a woman is running from captors during a storm

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greg: like the captors are like the danger, but also the storm is adding something uncanny to it. It's adding some kind of weird angle that's also

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greg: like. That's what makes it really hit. It's not just it adds this extra supernatural

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greg: element to it.

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greg: And the early stuff, the very early Gothic literature would do something really cool.

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greg: And I think you're really gonna like this. It's like found footage. So, Horace Walpole.

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greg: this is the guy who invented the genre of Gothic literature. He writes this story called the Castle of Aronto, and he sets it up like this.

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greg: He doesn't take credit for it at 1st he leaves. This little quote, like the following work, was found in the library of an ancient Catholic family that's found footage. That's like how Dracula set up. That's Blair witch. That's paranormal. Isn't that like? Is? It's so cool that that has.

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Dave: Is that how Frankenstein was set up or no.

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greg: So he kind of.

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Dave: Yeah, yeah, because he picks.

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greg: The journal.

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Dave: Yeah, it's a journal. That's right.

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greg: That's the coolest way

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greg: to do that. It's like you're coming across this story. And and Frankenstein's a great

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greg: example of Victorian Gothic literature, maybe one of the best examples, right? Besides, I don't know.

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greg: It's right up there with Dracula. It's up there with everything.

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greg: but so it's good that you say that because that makes me start thinking of the themes that are coming out.

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greg: and the themes are like the the world's taboos.

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greg: Setting is going to be important laboratories.

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greg: right? Crumbling buildings is obviously, when you're talking about laboratories and crumbling buildings, you're getting that haunted house trope that we're going to see throughout

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greg: Gothic literature.

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greg: From this point on

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greg: secrets, violation of expectations, isolation. There's going to be some psychological trauma, corruption of innocence, injustice, but mostly it's searching for truth, it's it's

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greg: to make it

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greg: more digestible, because this is like pretty profound stuff, these, these.

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greg: these writers are writing stories that are nuanced. They're smart, they're they're searching for some great meaning. But people are really kind of glomming onto just these like dark little subjects, for whatever reason people are like that.

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greg: So what people start writing are these things called Blue books? And they're just

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greg: like they get right to the point, like, there's something terrible happening, or maybe a terrible picture, and you just need to find out what the hell's going on there, and it turns into penny dreadfuls. Have you ever watched that show, Penny? Dreadful.

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Dave: No, I never watched it.

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greg: It's actually.

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greg: I'm not like Super happy about how it wraps up, because I don't think it got enough of a chance. But it's actually, really, really good.

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greg: So

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greg: what happens with these petty dreadfuls and these blue books and Gothic literature in general is

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greg: the power, the haves, I guess you can call it, or the powers that be. I don't know how you we want to like frame that.

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greg: They start to worry, that the working class and the people without a lot of money are going to become bloodthirsty maniacs, and they shouldn't have access to this kind of like dark stuff.

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greg: because they're not intellectual enough to understand it, which is kind of messed up, but it brings up the age old debate to me, and I always kind of. I never asked you how you feel about this. But this is something that's psychological and kind of an important question.

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greg: Now.

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greg: they're afraid that people are going to read these stories and be violent.

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greg: So

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greg: how do you feel about that? It's kind of like the same thing as

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greg: if a kid plays violent video games are going to be violent. Or if a kid watches violent movies, they're going to be violent like, what's your what's your take on that.

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Dave: I do think that certain medias can influence people's behavior.

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Dave: I don't know that I've ever thought of it in the realm of books.

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greg: Hmm! That's true.

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Dave: It's a different way of digesting information. But I do have some

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Dave: thoughts about video games in particular, because of the way that you process, and you're like in immersed.

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Dave: I don't know.

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greg: Yeah, well, so I think it would be irresponsible and kind of like you'd really kind of have to be lying to yourself to say it has no effect on violence.

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Dave: I mean we see it.

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greg: Oh, yeah.

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Dave: You literally can see it when you if you work with kids and you see it with kids who are exposed to

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Dave: super violent games versus kids who don't play super violent games, even though.

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greg: It isn't.

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Dave: Direct.

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greg: It's like you're desensitized to like kind of things you probably shouldn't be desensitized to. They should be. They should be horrific kind of things. You shouldn't just be seeing that all the time. And I wonder what our brains like, how much our brains have changed the images that we see these days that we would have never seen, you know, in the Victorian time. So like like, it's funny, because when we did the

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greg: the universal monsters and we, I give you credit. Beautiful episode, beautiful thought.

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greg: But when we watch those movies and I remember watching those movies for the 1st time and being like this is not scary.

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Dave: Oh, yeah.

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greg: You know what I mean?

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Dave: People are like oh, for example, like Invisible Man.

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greg: Yeah.

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Dave: That was like silly. How much she was like screaming! We were kind of like laughing wild, like the shrieking in that film.

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Dave: and like. There was not one part of it that was like even remotely chilling.

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greg: No, not at all, none of it. Frankenstein was like.

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greg: I mean, I could have watched. Let my, you know, six-year-old watch that, and he would have been like, this is fun

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greg: but that they had like

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greg: trigger warnings in, you know, for people who were going to be watching that like people passing out like they're watching.

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greg: you know, paranormal activity. That was a great marketing thing where they would film people in the theater and just watch their reactions. And

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greg: people were freaking out like they were doing that to Frankenstein because they weren't. They weren't desensitized to like this kind of horrific thing. When you think about it, there is some pretty

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greg: scary psychological trauma, some. There's some crazy things going on there.

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greg: Yeah. But I'll just kind of get to some examples of the architecture and examples of literature here, and I'll let you kind of move on into more modern times.

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greg: So

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greg: architecture.

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greg: I mean

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greg: Westminster Abbey, Notre Dame, like any kind of like cathedral cathedral cathedral, right cathedrals across the world.

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greg: But interestingly, I found a couple that were were not cathedrals. So the Tribune Tower in Chicago is is a Gothic structure, and so is the Woolworth Building in New York City, and I was wondering like is that the building that

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greg: they filmed the whole

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greg: ghostbusters thing they had to have used the Gothic building right.

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Dave: Oh, I don't know.

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greg: But that being said because there's a gargoyles and gargoyles are are certainly

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Dave: Sure, sure, sure.

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greg: Gargoyles are an interesting thing, too. I had this.

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greg: we we did the dark psychology class at PC. And then for one of the classes we had. One of these priests come in and talk about like his, you know, relationship with like

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greg: evil spirits. And all these things, and what he did was he started talking about gargoyles on buildings, and like what their use was. Besides, I don't know gutters, so there's a story about.

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greg: There was this dragon, terrorizing this town and the the residents of the town finally killed it. But the and when they chopped it all up the head wouldn't burn.

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greg: so

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greg: they just tacked the head to the, to the church, to be a warning to all other evil spirits who would try to attack.

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greg: but he also had another take where it was like. They all the Gargoyles are always facing outside of the church to represent, like the evil, the evils out there, and you need to come in here for peace.

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greg: So I mean, just kind of a couple interesting ways. I always thought it was sort of a strange thing to have scary scary gargoyles on

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greg: the church.

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Dave: Yeah, I never. I actually never thought about it.

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greg: Yeah, no, I.

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Dave: Never even struck me to be honest.

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greg: As odd.

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Dave: I never even thought about it. It never even like crossed my mind to think about it.

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greg: So. Did you ever watch the show? Gargoyles.

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Dave: I've seen it. Yeah.

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greg: That's a great show, and just a few examples of literature. Obviously, Frankenstein.

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greg: Great call Jekyll and Hyde.

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greg: We love that. So so I'll do 3 here. So

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greg: Frankenstein, Jekyll, Jekyll, and Hyde and Dorian Gray are all

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greg: Gothic literature, and we've done an episode on all of those.

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Dave: Yeah.

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greg: So that's pretty cool. I included turn of the screw, because that's Henry James, William, James's brother, who is William James, the father of American psychology. His brother wrote

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greg: some Gothic

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greg: literature which is cool. Jane Eyre is actually

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greg: Gothic literature. People don't really

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greg: associate that with kind of scary

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greg: anything. Dickens. I think Dickensian would be scary, too, I mean, when you think about

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greg: a Christmas carol that's got all the ghosts. And yeah, that's that's probably. And of course, Dracula

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greg: the list can go on and on. But, Dave, let's let's where. Where do we go from? Here?

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Dave: Sure. So it goes from

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Dave: this. You know, architecture and literature, and then eventually becomes

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Dave: what we know as like a

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Dave: a music style, right like a sub genre of music. And this really does take place in London very much.

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Dave: As kind of a result of

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Dave: a punk like when Punk started to kind of

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Dave: fade like transition. So when you know, obviously, Punk was all about like anarchy, and you know you're fighting the government, and pro like rebelling against the government and everything like that. So eventually, what ends up transforming into is music. That kind of reflects

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Dave: a darker side of it's more gloomy atmospheric. And this is really starting to reflect what London starts to look like in the late seventies. Early eighties.

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Dave: because for London at that time. It's kind of a dark place, it there's high unemployment. There's strikes recession.

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Dave: And it's a really really challenging time for young people. So the punk scene starts dying, and in comes this darker style of music.

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Dave: So the people that are kind of already, you know, gravitating towards the dark are then drawn to musicians who are already kind of making this darker music.

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Dave: for example, like Joy Division.

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Dave: David Bowie, even Alice Cooper could even be kind of linked in there.

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Dave: And I even heard like references to kiss who I would never think is Goth, but they definitely kind of have, like the aesthetic of it.

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Dave: Yes, Greg.

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greg: Yeah, my my cousin shout out to Mike Charmertier was obsessed with kiss, and he was about 10 years older than me, growing up, and we would have to go get him out of his basement when we were young. Yeah, and his his basement would be covered in his like. I don't know. What would you call that like merch? And it was horrifying if you you know I was, you know, 9 years old, going down there and seeing all this like, and because my father had put it in my head that kissed it was an acronym for nights in Satan service, and.

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Dave: Oh, yeah.

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greg: Yeah.

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Dave: Yeah, they did. So that's kind of like, right? There is kind of you know, the outsider looking in kind of looking at it as like this is satanic or something like that. But it's it's more just a reflection of something that I think was kind of like brewing in society at that time, especially like I said in London, as the punk scene starts to die.

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Dave: So like, I was saying, those are some bands that maybe would be associated with this movement, while I would not probably consider kiss to be Goth. They're more obviously like rock, like kind of set, straightforward rock. I would say, their aesthetic definitely fit in, as did Alice Cooper. So the original forms of this music were less aggressive than than punk

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Dave: and they captured more of like the themes of like existentialism, romanticism, nihilism, Gothic horror.

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Dave: And they were really like intro, like introspective, I guess, and thought provoking.

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Dave: A couple of like the early early bands. So Susie and the Banshees was one of the originals she was. Her style was what kind of like set the the tone for what was going to be like the aesthetic of Goth

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Dave: which you know, as we know, is like all black clothing Victorian inspired. It's like, you know, it's all about the hair and the makeup like the big black hair. And

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Dave: I heard somebody say, and I thought this was a perfect way, morbid, but romantic.

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Dave: So kind of picture this. It's like, you know, it might be like fishnets, and

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Dave: it's it's.

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greg: I really it's like it is very like morbid but romantic. Just screams

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greg: Bela Lugosi, you know.

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Dave: Well, ironically speaking, of Bela Lugosi. So at 1st Goth became was like something that even people who definitely were inspired by this music and the style, who were kind of encompassing it they were. They weren't willing to take the label of Goth. It wasn't something that you you wore as a badge. You know. Then some bands, you know, there were some following bands that came up. Public image limited the damned the killing joke.

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Dave: And then you even had like something an event like joy. Divisions, Ian Curtis commit suicide, which definitely kind of fit into this movement of Goth and darkness and everything like that. But then it was Bauhaus's, 1979, Bella Bela Lugosi's dead.

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Dave: which really became the moment where

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Dave: Goth became like this actual scene like a movement.

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greg: Wait a minute. Wait, Bela. Lugosi's dead is what an album.

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Dave: It's a song.

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greg: Oh, okay.

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Dave: You. You don't know. Bela. Lugosi's dead.

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greg: Now, is it a good song?

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Dave: It's an amazing song. It is absolutely amazing. It's very long song.

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Dave: but it is everything you would imagine Goth to be. It is that? And that's when the scene really starts, and then you suddenly have people that are proud to be Goth right.

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Dave: And it's it's all encompassing. And this is when we get like that 1st wave of Goth bands.

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Dave: My all-time favorite band

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Dave: is Goth, and that is the cure, and they are very heavy part of this this movement. This is I never really thought of myself as Goth until I started to do this episode and realized, wow! I really do like.

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greg: Minus the fishnets. But you're right.

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Dave: I everything about Goth? Yeah, minus the style for me.

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greg: What about like

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greg: Morrissey? He seems very.

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Dave: Oh, yeah, oh, and got Morrissey is like right up there for me. So the smiths and all that. I mean, they're definitely kind of like

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Dave: on the outside, but I think they could still be very lumped in, based on the content of their music. The tonality

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Dave: I mean, there's definitely like a style that of

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Dave: certain attributes to the music, like heavy bass that like that wouldn't really fit for Morrissey and the Smiths music.

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greg: Mining, would.

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Dave: No, they're not whiny. Goth is not whiny, it is

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Dave: is introspective, it is, it is anything but whiny, that is, that is something different. So by 1982 Goth is like a claim term, and it's no longer an insult to be to be called it. We have, you know the bands already listed. We have another couple of bands like Southern death cult is a band that comes out. Do you know who that band turns into at some point.

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greg: No.

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Dave: They so Southern death call eventually takes out a few of their words in their title, and they eventually become the cult.

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Dave: Do you know the colt? No, you sell sanctuary

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Dave: all right. Famous band.

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greg: I think you're you're gonna have to teach me.

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Dave: Tons of albums.

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greg: The ways.

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Dave: Add them in the.

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greg: Do I lose the title? Dark dark, Greg?

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Dave: Yeah, yeah.

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greg: But I might.

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Dave: Stripped.

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greg: Let's.

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Dave: Other great examples of this ministry. Very much starts as Goth. They potentially, you know, over time. They kind of change the style of music that they make. But what is it every day is? Halloween is like a perfect example of like

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Dave: an amazing Goth anthem, I would say, so then you get into like later times. We have bands like 9 inch nails who definitely kind of set the tone for Goth in the late eighties, nineties. Even to today they're still making music. Marilyn Manson.

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Dave: I mean, I think when he comes out you have a whole new wave of individuals who are inspired by Goth.

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Dave: and I kind of feel like Marilyn Manson. Manson

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Dave: started

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Dave: the the newer trend of like Mall Goth. Hot topic.

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greg: Absolutely. I was just.

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Dave: Right.

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greg: No, you're yeah, like between 9 inch nails and Marilyn Manson and Marilyn Manson was such.

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greg: I mean, when you think of 9 inch nails, and you watch the the video closer. That's Goth that's Gothic. That's like a throwback to like Victorian Gothic. And then Marilyn Manson is almost like this Glam. It's like this, Glam.

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Dave: So.

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greg: Bowie.

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Dave: Yeah.

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greg: But so such a an influence to the point where like people were so concerned. With this. This is the whole West Memphis. 3. This is

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greg: satanic panic, for sure, especially like, you know, the this is the the tail end of it. But these these are 2 super influential. This is Goth for us in high school, right? This is what we were experiencing.

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Dave: Yeah. And it's so funny. Because, like.

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Dave: Goth, I don't think there's any subgenre of music

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Dave: there. There is, actually. But they're not this big, not not a subgenre or a genre that's lasted. The duration that Goth has

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Dave: that is so scrutinized or like

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Dave: so controversial, as far as like who's included who's not included. What could be Goth? What's not Goth like? I feel like there could be so many there can be, and there are so many debates about that, or even like who claims to be Goth versus who denies to be Goth?

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Dave: I think even the cure at some point have said like they're not Goth. It's just coincidental that they've been linked to Goth for so long. Things like that like there, I don't know any other music that we do that like we never say like, Oh, is Kanye West? Hip, hop, or is, you know, like, you know, things like that? We would never question most

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Dave: bands as far as what genre they are. But like, I feel that like that comes up so much in this kind of music, and I don't totally understand why.

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greg: Well, I think it's like

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greg: it's something that I find very interesting about this is again like it always has like horror type stuff. And it gets this like it's not

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greg: Received the same way as like other music, would be more respected or revered where I think that this kind of music really is getting to the truth of things. And with the the original

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greg: literature was truth searching literature. And when what's more truth than like pain, and, like.

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greg: you know, sadness and depression. And it's connection.

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Dave: Its connection to life and its connection to death is like

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Dave: is so close, right? And I think there's something about that that is like

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Dave: scary but attractive to most people, and the people who claim to it and like embrace it.

382
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Dave: I think, can sometimes scare off the people who are like. I'm sort of into it, but I don't know why I want to go all the way right? So I think it becomes a thing where it's like. If you're one of those people that just toes the line, you might be a little bit more hesitant to just say.

383
00:32:03.640 --> 00:32:12.429
Dave: yes, I love that because you don't want to necessarily be associated with the people that are like heavy in it, because the people who are heavy in it, especially in.

384
00:32:12.610 --> 00:32:29.690
Dave: I think what happens in like maybe 9 late nineties to 2 thousands, Goth becomes more of a style than it becomes. A music right? So like we were talking about like the Goth Mall kids, the hot topic kids. It was more about style than it was about the music.

385
00:32:30.110 --> 00:32:31.849
greg: And maybe it's about finding

386
00:32:32.361 --> 00:32:34.290
greg: somewhere to fit in, too, like.

387
00:32:34.290 --> 00:32:42.790
Dave: Becomes a, it becomes a cultural. So it it goes from this thing. So like punk punk was like counterculture. Right?

388
00:32:42.870 --> 00:33:01.920
Dave: It's it's statement against mainstream. It's we're not going to go along with what you tell us. We're fighting against it. That's what Punk is. Then it transforms into Goth and Goth is a statement of these are the conditions we're living in. And it's also again, it's again, it's a counterculture statement against the way mainstream societies, right.

389
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:07.269
greg: Goths have always been counterculture, even for centuries and centuries and centuries and centuries.

390
00:33:07.270 --> 00:33:09.190
Dave: Until it became.

391
00:33:09.190 --> 00:33:09.700
greg: Him.

392
00:33:09.700 --> 00:33:12.040
Dave: Cool to be God right.

393
00:33:12.040 --> 00:33:13.109
greg: Then you ruined it.

394
00:33:13.110 --> 00:33:24.590
Dave: Then you ruined it. Yeah, even though you know they I don't. I wouldn't say it's ruined. I just would say it's changed. It's not what Goth represented in the eighties, the late seventies, you know, early nineties.

395
00:33:24.690 --> 00:33:37.470
Dave: It's just change. It's different. People join or become Goth more as like I connect to this. I connect to these people. It's a statement, but it's not a countercultural statement, because now it's part of the culture.

396
00:33:37.830 --> 00:33:39.510
greg: Well, Dave, do you think it's like

397
00:33:39.770 --> 00:33:45.920
greg: for forever? Everything's been like about positive psychology and trying to be happy, and all these other things, but

398
00:33:46.480 --> 00:34:06.589
greg: people who are Gothic or a Goth, they have, like a more of a reverence for the darker things, which is extremely valuable. You know, keeps you morally, morally responsible. And it reminds you what's important in life. It also keeps in mind the fact that you're going to die. I mean, when you see all this like darkness, and we're wearing black. It's almost like that whole

399
00:34:06.590 --> 00:34:25.729
greg: stoic momentum, or anything like keeping an eye on that. Darkness is makes you more of a full person, right? And like everyone else, wants to push away the darkness. And these people are just people who are like, I'm gonna accept that darkness is a part of culture and and sort of like wear that a little bit, as a, you know, represent that. Yeah.

400
00:34:25.730 --> 00:34:32.209
Dave: It's more than just a style in all honesty, even though that's what it became. At some point. It is more than just a style. It's it's

401
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:38.499
Dave: it is. It's it's a set, a frame of mind, it's a. It's a way of embracing or looking at life.

402
00:34:38.730 --> 00:34:42.659
Dave: but it's often associated with things that can be a little fringe

403
00:34:43.319 --> 00:34:56.810
Dave: cemeteries, you know. Speaking of Morrissey, he's got that song cemetery gates right like, you know, he's like. That's a title of one of his songs so, and he's like, you know, talking about hanging out in the cemetery.

404
00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:58.379
Dave: I would hang out in the cemetery.

405
00:34:58.380 --> 00:34:58.920
greg: You too.

406
00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:07.520
Dave: Am I? Goth? No, but you know, but that's I. I think that's something a Goth person would would find to be Goth right.

407
00:35:07.520 --> 00:35:11.199
greg: Yeah, absolutely just like, yeah.

408
00:35:11.450 --> 00:35:17.299
Dave: So it it's it is interesting. And so there's some. So there is definitely some like

409
00:35:17.678 --> 00:35:26.339
Dave: contemporary versions of Goth music still. But you know, kind of going back a little bit like Interpol was more contemporary. Are you familiar with them at all?

410
00:35:26.340 --> 00:35:29.090
greg: I am actually familiar with. I'm a huge fan.

411
00:35:29.090 --> 00:35:30.745
Dave: One of my favorites.

412
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:36.320
Dave: yeah, I love interpol. She wants revenge, I was thinking, was probably another band that I would say, is Goth.

413
00:35:37.023 --> 00:35:47.319
Dave: Dresden dolls. But then, even more recently, Goth has kind of transcended genres, cultures, race

414
00:35:47.550 --> 00:35:57.040
Dave: and a lot more. And like I said, and now that it's more of like a style than it is necessarily like a representation of like a certain specific kind of music.

415
00:35:57.230 --> 00:36:07.719
Dave: You even see it in like hip! Hop so like Lil Lilz Evert. Young thug! There's like a number of hip hop artists that have embraced like Goth style.

416
00:36:07.720 --> 00:36:08.350
greg: Hmm.

417
00:36:09.640 --> 00:36:26.968
Dave: We see it in fashion today with people who wouldn't necessarily be considered Goth, but like at the met gala this year, which is an event that's all about influencing with fashion. Zen Zendaya or Zendaya. However, you say it. And Charlie Xcx. They both were

418
00:36:27.720 --> 00:36:34.939
Dave: wearing like Goth style in their attire and stuff like that. So it's it's definitely like, transcended into pop culture

419
00:36:35.010 --> 00:36:39.650
Dave: and different genres of music and things like that which is very interesting.

420
00:36:39.650 --> 00:36:40.859
greg: It's very cool, too.

421
00:36:41.060 --> 00:36:42.320
Dave: It is cool

422
00:36:42.810 --> 00:36:50.489
Dave: unless you're one of those people that wants to stay true to like what it is. You know what I mean. So like it's easy for us to say, Oh, that's cool. But like

423
00:36:50.550 --> 00:36:53.899
Dave: a person who actually has like connection to that initial movement.

424
00:36:53.900 --> 00:36:55.189
greg: Yeah, probably, yeah.

425
00:36:55.190 --> 00:36:56.370
Dave: Hey! Wait a minute.

426
00:36:56.620 --> 00:36:59.260
greg: I understand that. But isn't it like, I don't know.

427
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:05.116
greg: I yeah, I guess I could see both sides of that. So do you, are you? Were you gonna talk a little bit about

428
00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:10.280
greg: horror. And you mentioned Tim Burton earlier, and I kind of wanted to get back to that or.

429
00:37:10.280 --> 00:37:31.109
Dave: Yeah. So there is definitely like influence of Goth and film. I brought up Tim Burton because he's heavy in Goth. And like, if you think about it. You know beetlejuice. You have Winona Ryder's character, but the film itself is very Goth. It's all about death. It's all about embracing death, the the fine line between life and death.

430
00:37:31.110 --> 00:37:31.860
greg: Normal.

431
00:37:31.860 --> 00:37:32.440
Dave: Paranormal.

432
00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:37.470
greg: Like the sublime right? Something that you just can't really understand. Creepiness, the uncanny.

433
00:37:37.470 --> 00:37:43.129
Dave: Wynona Ryder's character literally represents, like that Goth aesthetic right.

434
00:37:43.130 --> 00:37:43.620
greg: Yeah.

435
00:37:43.620 --> 00:37:48.567
Dave: All black. The bangs. Everything about her is is very Goth.

436
00:37:48.980 --> 00:37:55.649
greg: Like almost like a black veil. So it's like kind of a dark side of I don't know. It's just very cool, very cool, and.

437
00:37:55.650 --> 00:37:56.540
Dave: We have

438
00:37:57.553 --> 00:37:59.099
Dave: batman returns

439
00:37:59.960 --> 00:38:08.550
Dave: very Goth, if you think about it just like darkness all the time. Got like Gotham is very Gothic

440
00:38:09.373 --> 00:38:14.700
Dave: edward Scissorhands, I would say, would be like Edward scissorhands very Goth.

441
00:38:14.700 --> 00:38:18.450
greg: But he basically basically is brought up in a cathedral.

442
00:38:18.450 --> 00:38:18.989
Dave: Yeah, it's awesome.

443
00:38:18.990 --> 00:38:24.830
greg: Structure right? And like all like that, the laboratory, that's another Goth Gothic trope.

444
00:38:25.140 --> 00:38:26.229
Dave: It's so great

445
00:38:26.680 --> 00:38:31.440
Dave: all time. Favorite Vincent Price is very Goth, and he's in that that castle.

446
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:32.660
greg: Incredible. Right?

447
00:38:33.447 --> 00:38:35.179
Dave: Coraline super. Goth.

448
00:38:36.190 --> 00:38:50.389
Dave: Nightmare before Christmas corpse bride, I mean. Think about these films. They're all Goth like it's all that Gothic style, right? That Gothic aesthetic, and all the themes of death, life and death.

449
00:38:51.580 --> 00:38:53.259
Dave: camera, horror films.

450
00:38:53.450 --> 00:39:09.999
Dave: I I talked about hammer horror films when we did the universal monsters. I don't know, if you remember, that hammer hammer is, that is England's version of like the universal monsters. Basically, Christopher Lee has, you know, portrayed Dracula and various other classic monsters.

451
00:39:10.040 --> 00:39:13.586
Dave: But it's heavy on Victorian Gothic, aesthetic. It's

452
00:39:14.460 --> 00:39:19.769
Dave: It's just very beautiful. The scenery. It's all exactly what you described in like Dracula, and.

453
00:39:19.770 --> 00:39:21.670
greg: It is. There is something beautiful about it, though, right.

454
00:39:21.670 --> 00:39:23.860
Dave: Oh, yeah. Lanterns.

455
00:39:23.860 --> 00:39:28.920
greg: Like opulence. There is something aesthetically like beautiful.

456
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:29.490
Dave: I think that's.

457
00:39:29.490 --> 00:39:31.790
greg: Part of it right, finding the beauty in the darkness.

458
00:39:31.790 --> 00:39:45.150
Dave: Oh, it's yeah. It's creepy, beautiful. It's yeah. It's everything that I think people love in Halloween time to think about. You know a great example, though, of like for people who aren't familiar with hammer, horror, horror films, and what that Gothic style looks like.

459
00:39:45.210 --> 00:39:48.889
Dave: If you've seen the more recent movie, The Nun.

460
00:39:50.210 --> 00:39:52.569
Dave: not the nun. 2, the nun, one.

461
00:39:53.452 --> 00:40:12.760
Dave: It is a nod. It is a a definite nod to hammer horror films. It's super Gothic. There's actually a scene where she's outside of like whatever they're in. Whatever the building is that they're in. And she's like in this little like cemetery with a lantern, and there's like it's just it's all Gothic, and that

462
00:40:13.090 --> 00:40:13.760
Dave: with the hammer.

463
00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:25.560
greg: Like rusty gates. Yeah, Spanish moss hanging from the trees. I know it's so awesome. Well, and I saw like in your notes, too. You mentioned my sister's favorite favorite favorite favorite movie, The Crow. She named her daughter Shelly.

464
00:40:25.950 --> 00:40:29.790
Dave: Oh, yeah, the crow is an amazing film. I love the crow.

465
00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:31.689
Dave: The craft is another.

466
00:40:31.690 --> 00:40:33.549
greg: Just miss. We talked about Morrissey.

467
00:40:33.550 --> 00:40:49.849
Dave: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And underworld would be, I guess, very Gothic. And of course the Addams family, which then gets another resurgence. Recently with Jen Ortega, who's, you know, a fan favorite of such a of all the young, you know

468
00:40:49.890 --> 00:40:58.970
Dave: kids out there and then she portrays Wednesday Adams, and then kind of researches this Goth trend. And then you suddenly see a bunch of people cosplaying as Wendy Adams and

469
00:40:59.190 --> 00:41:00.170
Dave: things like that.

470
00:41:00.170 --> 00:41:05.939
greg: The Adam's family is so great, too, even like the the nineties Christina Ricci. Obviously she gets that

471
00:41:06.340 --> 00:41:23.679
greg: cameo in the newer Wednesday, Adams Wednesday, but just that whole like the house and and that existing right in a suburban neighborhood. I just think it's so cool like I love the Adams family movies in the nineties, the one with Christine, the ones with Christina Ricci. They're just so great.

472
00:41:24.769 --> 00:41:32.679
Dave: And then one and one Goth tidbit that I or something. People, should definitely look up. If you haven't seen this yet.

473
00:41:33.006 --> 00:41:39.140
Dave: Saturday night. Live night live! I think this was probably early 2 thousands, maybe even before that don't quote me.

474
00:41:40.140 --> 00:41:46.969
Dave: And they did these amazing Goth skits with Chris Catan, and I think Molly Shannon was in some of them as well.

475
00:41:47.070 --> 00:41:56.439
Dave: It is, they are hilarious. Chris Katan is one of my favorites. From Saturday night live. I know he's a little weird now, but he did such an amazing Goth scene in there.

476
00:41:57.470 --> 00:41:58.399
Dave: Check it out.

477
00:41:59.834 --> 00:42:08.019
Dave: I also. I just wanted to say, like the cure is such an amazing band. I'm going back to this for a second. But they're

478
00:42:08.190 --> 00:42:19.020
Dave: they're so, you know. They represent to me like I always wondered. Why. Why are they Goth? Why are they Goth other than the style like when you think about Robert Smith style? It's like he's got the big hair he wears makeup

479
00:42:19.380 --> 00:42:20.730
Dave: but I never like really.

480
00:42:20.730 --> 00:42:21.690
greg: Not good anymore.

481
00:42:22.780 --> 00:42:23.924
Dave: You shut your mouth.

482
00:42:26.105 --> 00:42:27.410
Dave: I was. Only

483
00:42:27.530 --> 00:42:29.579
Dave: if because I know I know every song.

484
00:42:29.700 --> 00:42:36.090
Dave: and only I'm like it's not. They're not like super dark songs. It's always about love and everything like that. And

485
00:42:36.454 --> 00:42:39.699
Dave: so I'm like, why, why are they always considered Goth?

486
00:42:39.860 --> 00:42:42.380
Dave: I think what makes them. Goth, though, is like

487
00:42:43.330 --> 00:42:53.459
Dave: their transformation, like the way to me, it's more than even just their music like he! He purposely tried to sabotage the band at 1 point in time, and then

488
00:42:53.610 --> 00:43:07.649
Dave: ironically, that big song became such a hit. It ended up like blowing the band up even further. He wrote a whole album when he locked himself in a room and did like Lsd, like, you know, like things like that. It's like he's just so

489
00:43:08.080 --> 00:43:22.640
Dave: I don't know. He's just so in his head, and he's always like, I feel like there's a part of him that like has, like he's always overthinking or like trying to like, you know, his high emotion. Yeah, yeah, there's something about him that's just he's so he's so sensitive

490
00:43:23.290 --> 00:43:25.709
Dave: but strong. At the same time.

491
00:43:25.710 --> 00:43:34.119
greg: That's like what it's kind of all about, right, though, like that psychological trauma. And and it's like, aren't a lot of the songs. Sure they're about love, but unrequited.

492
00:43:34.280 --> 00:43:34.740
greg: like.

493
00:43:34.740 --> 00:43:43.180
Dave: No, not not so. I sometimes not always with with the cure. I'm I'm trying to think like examples of that.

494
00:43:43.190 --> 00:43:48.499
Dave: I wouldn't say it's always that. But he does have. There's always themes of love. Oh.

495
00:43:48.580 --> 00:43:54.179
Dave: for people who aren't so familiar. If you don't know this music video, Charlotte sometimes is

496
00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:58.680
Dave: a great Gothic video. It's a girl in like this.

497
00:43:58.970 --> 00:44:15.530
Dave: I guess it's a i don't know if you would call it a cathedral, or it's not really a castle, but she's in this like Victorian building. And like like I said, lanterns, Charlotte. Sometimes that's a Gothic song right there. And it's the videos back, then, are great in the nineties.

498
00:44:15.530 --> 00:44:20.916
greg: Yeah, I'm thinking of like that meatloaf Video. I would do anything for love. That's a definitely Gothic video.

499
00:44:21.200 --> 00:44:21.580
Dave: Yes. Yeah.

500
00:44:21.580 --> 00:44:24.350
greg: Honestly motorcycles, even though I guess that could fit in these days.

501
00:44:24.350 --> 00:44:25.210
Dave: So I feel like it's.

502
00:44:25.210 --> 00:44:28.130
greg: Last dance with Mary Jane that time of that weird, Tom Petty video.

503
00:44:28.130 --> 00:44:30.359
Dave: Oh, yeah, that was was that Kim Basinger.

504
00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:31.759
greg: And she was dead.

505
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:32.140
Dave: Yeah.

506
00:44:32.140 --> 00:44:34.200
greg: Dancing with a dead woman. That's pretty Gothic.

507
00:44:34.200 --> 00:44:43.190
Dave: I feel like it's there's an emotion in Goth that comes through in the music, but it's also real with the musician.

508
00:44:43.620 --> 00:44:44.989
greg: So love is a very.

509
00:44:44.990 --> 00:44:45.460
Dave: It is.

510
00:44:45.460 --> 00:44:47.650
greg: Important part of yeah. Well.

511
00:44:47.650 --> 00:44:54.390
Dave: Not even just love, just emotion, sensitivity, emotion, like I was saying, like Joy Division's. Ian Curtis was

512
00:44:54.710 --> 00:44:56.590
Dave: clearly a tormented soul

513
00:44:56.640 --> 00:45:03.480
Dave: like he was clearly tormented. Yeah, he suffered from. I think he had epileptic seizures

514
00:45:03.950 --> 00:45:13.150
Dave: and like, I said, he ended. He ended up committing suicide at 1 point, but, like clearly, there's like an emotion that comes through in these. In these artists

515
00:45:13.560 --> 00:45:15.180
Dave: they come through in their music.

516
00:45:15.180 --> 00:45:26.179
greg: There's 2 really sort of Gothic images that I think of. We've talked about both of them. We've actually done episodes of both of them. One is Carl Tanzler.

517
00:45:26.560 --> 00:45:52.850
greg: finding the woman he loves, who's dead on like digging her up and putting her in a wheelbarrow and bringing his dead wife, who he marries when she's dead, back to his room and living with her as husband and wife for years. That's pretty freaking Gothic, and so is you know Robert Johnson, who made a deal with the devil, but the the person who gives him instructions to do it is someone who's like sitting on top of a gravestone in a graveyard. It's just

518
00:45:53.260 --> 00:45:59.709
greg: like picturing, that is, it's very Gothic, the crossroads and and just the night in the South.

519
00:45:59.880 --> 00:46:05.360
greg: I don't know. It's just all very. It's all very interesting to me. You're right, though. There is something

520
00:46:05.740 --> 00:46:28.340
greg: there's something, and I think that's what the Edmund Burke was trying to talk about with you just can't put your finger on it. It's that sublime, it's it's sure it's an emotion, but it's like awe and terror. So that's you're saying 2 things like like awe, which is, you know, supposedly a good, positive emotion and terror. And it's essentially the same emotion.

521
00:46:28.450 --> 00:46:30.819
greg: And that's what that's where you get like

522
00:46:31.250 --> 00:46:34.310
greg: this Gothic sort of feeling.

523
00:46:34.360 --> 00:46:35.739
greg: Oh, and Tara! So.

524
00:46:35.740 --> 00:46:39.939
Dave: So what ends up happening, though with the music itself is, it becomes

525
00:46:40.120 --> 00:46:52.740
Dave: like it. Like any style of music. There becomes little sub genres of that style of music, and then it kind of transforms into all these different things. And you the reason why I said earlier you had mentioned my chemical romance.

526
00:46:52.740 --> 00:46:53.370
greg: Hmm.

527
00:46:53.370 --> 00:46:58.420
Dave: And like, I guess some people would probably associate them more with Pop, Punk.

528
00:46:58.620 --> 00:47:00.590
Dave: or with like Emo.

529
00:47:00.680 --> 00:47:06.639
Dave: which I guess Emo has a connection, maybe to Gothic Goth music, but I wouldn't say

530
00:47:06.870 --> 00:47:10.710
Dave: Emo is Goth music, and I wouldn't say like Screamo or

531
00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:13.039
Dave: Pop punk is Goth.

532
00:47:13.040 --> 00:47:14.219
greg: Now you're in the weeds.

533
00:47:15.030 --> 00:47:20.399
greg: Emo and Goth is. I was. I thought we were kind of a synonymous. I guess not.

534
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:27.859
Dave: I think even the listener who this is a listener recommended episode, and I think they even clarified that Greg, for you.

535
00:47:27.860 --> 00:47:28.600
greg: Okay.

536
00:47:28.870 --> 00:47:31.660
greg: I'm a well, I'm a boomer, so it's hard for me sometimes.

537
00:47:31.660 --> 00:47:34.360
Dave: You grew up with emo in the emo time.

538
00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:34.800
greg: Grew up with it.

539
00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:35.559
Dave: Listen to it.

540
00:47:35.560 --> 00:47:37.820
greg: I don't think we yeah, maybe you would say, Emo.

541
00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:40.479
Dave: No, I know we did, Greg. I'm the same age as you.

542
00:47:40.480 --> 00:47:42.399
greg: I think I think we would say emo.

543
00:47:42.480 --> 00:47:45.780
greg: and maybe for just speaking for myself. Obviously I think that I.

544
00:47:45.780 --> 00:47:47.609
Dave: Emo was more whiny. You said whiny.

545
00:47:47.610 --> 00:47:47.940
greg: Yeah.

546
00:47:47.940 --> 00:47:52.220
Dave: Goth is not whiny. Bauhaus was not whiny. The cure is not whiny.

547
00:47:52.430 --> 00:48:02.699
greg: See you, you have a better. You have a better grasp of it, because, you see, maybe the music spoke to you and taught you more about this subculture than it did for me, because I kind of

548
00:48:03.060 --> 00:48:05.209
greg: wasn't involved in that.

549
00:48:05.210 --> 00:48:07.520
Dave: Too busy listening to Leonard Skinnerd.

550
00:48:07.790 --> 00:48:09.620
greg: I was living in Chambawamba.

551
00:48:09.620 --> 00:48:10.170
Dave: Horrible!

552
00:48:11.670 --> 00:48:13.299
greg: Yeah, no. I was listening to like

553
00:48:13.520 --> 00:48:20.289
greg: blood Zeppelin and the Beatles and stuff when in high school, for whatever reason that really was popular with my group of friends.

554
00:48:20.470 --> 00:48:21.030
Dave: Yeah.

555
00:48:21.680 --> 00:48:22.569
greg: Grateful dead. A lot of.

556
00:48:22.570 --> 00:48:24.730
Dave: You're too busy wearing

557
00:48:25.270 --> 00:48:25.660
greg: Tied up.

558
00:48:25.660 --> 00:48:26.690
Dave: Michelle necklaces.

559
00:48:26.690 --> 00:48:27.659
greg: That's right. You're absolutely.

560
00:48:27.660 --> 00:48:28.040
Dave: Back.

561
00:48:28.040 --> 00:48:29.850
greg: You know what you're absolutely right.

562
00:48:29.850 --> 00:48:32.370
Dave: With your Jesus cruisers on.

563
00:48:32.370 --> 00:48:33.629
greg: It's my tow ring. Yep.

564
00:48:33.630 --> 00:48:35.210
Dave: In your, in your cargo, shorts.

565
00:48:35.210 --> 00:48:40.159
greg: Yes, look, you're not. You're not far off, my! My 17 necklaces.

566
00:48:40.380 --> 00:48:40.760
Dave: If I.

567
00:48:40.760 --> 00:48:45.629
greg: Yeah, with a huge bead size of, you know, a grapefruit.

568
00:48:45.630 --> 00:48:46.900
Dave: Bowl haircut, they add.

569
00:48:47.150 --> 00:48:48.659
greg: Oh, I had a bowl haircut, too.

570
00:48:48.660 --> 00:48:49.459
Dave: Yeah, it was, yeah.

571
00:48:49.460 --> 00:48:59.249
greg: Not not at that point, though, like I definitely had the bowl haircut, but left the bowl haircut behind in 9th grade, and I remember, I stepped into 9th grade and everyone was like, Wow, that is a different person.

572
00:48:59.490 --> 00:49:00.639
Dave: Your hair fell out.

573
00:49:00.640 --> 00:49:01.700
greg: No, it didn't fall out.

574
00:49:02.540 --> 00:49:07.819
greg: That was 4 short years later. I'm not around, but I had good. I had some good years. I have to say.

575
00:49:08.092 --> 00:49:09.180
Dave: Had a good run.

576
00:49:09.180 --> 00:49:11.888
greg: I didn't have a good run, so I

577
00:49:12.660 --> 00:49:14.140
Dave: So so Greg.

578
00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:22.230
Dave: What is it about Goth that connected people? Is it? Is it the same today?

579
00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:27.349
Dave: The same reason today as it is back in the eighties or late seventies when it started.

580
00:49:28.020 --> 00:49:29.080
Dave: What is it.

581
00:49:29.080 --> 00:49:31.870
greg: I mean, it's it's to me

582
00:49:32.550 --> 00:49:40.639
greg: it's well I can put it to you this way. I, this whole researching, this whole thing, made me think of this book that I read well, half of it and

583
00:49:41.580 --> 00:49:54.460
greg: And it was about this guy. It was just. It was kind of like a traveler's journal, and it was this guy who, instead of taking his family to places like Disney and all kinds of places, he took his places to play. He took his family to places like Hiroshima

584
00:49:54.560 --> 00:50:02.760
greg: and Auschwitz, and just all these really dark places, and I thought it was so interesting, but he he did that because

585
00:50:02.910 --> 00:50:05.300
greg: it taught it kind of like

586
00:50:06.520 --> 00:50:08.970
greg: unmoored him from.

587
00:50:09.050 --> 00:50:15.439
greg: You know his mundane life. It kind of made him have some more respect and and

588
00:50:15.800 --> 00:50:30.769
greg: love for his lifestyle and and his family, and it made him, you know, all the loss and the pain made him think of the things he should be grateful for, and it just kind of that whole idea, almost like Jungian shadow work where you shouldn't be pushing behind

589
00:50:30.810 --> 00:50:42.979
greg: should be pushing away all the darkness. Sometimes you gotta like look at it a little bit. Keep it part of your life so that you know you don't forget, and sometimes you the darkness is useful. It's a useful part of you. It's it's it's part of you. So

590
00:50:43.458 --> 00:50:52.050
greg: I mean, that's kind of what it still represents to me. That's always something that people should revere as part of the human experience.

591
00:50:52.070 --> 00:50:54.470
greg: but have like a healthy respect for.

592
00:50:54.490 --> 00:51:10.429
greg: and you know, keeping an eye on it makes helps us be careful with it. It's almost paradoxical, right? Like the people who are always trying to like when you watch these like scary, not scary. But like, when you watch, I don't know, like a modern movie about this kind of stuff. And maybe you know the

593
00:51:10.770 --> 00:51:12.979
greg: the person who's the

594
00:51:13.740 --> 00:51:20.280
greg: what would you call them like a preppy or rich kid. The well put together, kid. That's usually the darker figure.

595
00:51:20.370 --> 00:51:24.779
greg: the person that's completely hiding from all this stuff. And the Goth kid's usually kind of pretty good.

596
00:51:25.070 --> 00:51:27.000
Dave: Well, that's because. And I think

597
00:51:27.130 --> 00:51:42.135
Dave: the if you look from like the Goth movement like the the movement itself, there's nothing scary about it. It's not about scary. It's a connection. There is a connection to death, life and death, like we said, but it's not scary because they're embracing it. Yeah, like Parker Posey in

598
00:51:43.010 --> 00:51:45.149
Dave: Breakfast Club is not a scary character.

599
00:51:45.230 --> 00:51:46.339
Dave: She's a loner.

600
00:51:46.610 --> 00:51:47.080
greg: Yep.

601
00:51:47.080 --> 00:51:49.710
Dave: You're like kind of embracing that like

602
00:51:49.980 --> 00:51:57.099
Dave: life is pain. Life is suffering. I don't have a lot of friends kind of like, you know that lone loner Vibe right?

603
00:51:57.120 --> 00:51:58.130
Dave: But like

604
00:51:58.540 --> 00:52:00.899
Dave: there's nothing scary about her character right.

605
00:52:01.830 --> 00:52:04.219
greg: Not particularly.

606
00:52:05.040 --> 00:52:06.139
Dave: You were scared of her.

607
00:52:06.140 --> 00:52:08.890
greg: No I was no.

608
00:52:09.010 --> 00:52:13.849
greg: but I guess the the other guy was it Judd Nelson? I mean, he's kind of. He's kind of a Goth, too.

609
00:52:14.030 --> 00:52:14.580
greg: in a.

610
00:52:14.580 --> 00:52:16.329
Dave: He was like the bully.

611
00:52:16.330 --> 00:52:16.730
greg: Yeah.

612
00:52:16.730 --> 00:52:18.460
Dave: He was supposed to represent the bully.

613
00:52:18.730 --> 00:52:20.549
Dave: the jerks, the punks.

614
00:52:21.150 --> 00:52:25.489
Dave: He's that punk, he is the punk while she's the Goth. Then you got the prep.

615
00:52:25.490 --> 00:52:26.610
greg: Oh, that's cool. Yeah.

616
00:52:26.610 --> 00:52:27.590
Dave: At the Jock.

617
00:52:29.470 --> 00:52:32.930
Dave: Molly Ringwald would have been like the the preppy. Goody, goody.

618
00:52:33.860 --> 00:52:44.900
Dave: yeah, it was the Jock. Yeah. You had every architect right in there. So I guess, in my view of this, like connecting with, like the movement itself, versus like the history of the Goths.

619
00:52:45.020 --> 00:52:46.350
Dave: I think that like

620
00:52:47.220 --> 00:52:49.030
Dave: when it went mainstream.

621
00:52:49.630 --> 00:52:56.849
Dave: it lost some of the the connection to what it originally was. And I think now, what you see is like

622
00:52:57.060 --> 00:53:04.400
Dave: to me there's still like the mindset of Goth is still present, and it's just different in different places than like

623
00:53:04.500 --> 00:53:06.139
Dave: the aesthetic of Goth.

624
00:53:06.370 --> 00:53:11.850
Dave: So like, for example, there's plenty of people making music that I still think represents what Goth

625
00:53:11.960 --> 00:53:17.320
Dave: represented back. Then it's just transformed into different variations of music like.

626
00:53:17.620 --> 00:53:26.179
Dave: I'm gonna name a bunch of artists that you probably don't know, and some of them passed away like juice world. And like Lil Peep, those are like hip hop artists that made like super

627
00:53:26.590 --> 00:53:33.680
Dave: dark, but like dark, because it's like connected to life and death like they a lot of themes about dying and things like that in their music.

628
00:53:34.076 --> 00:53:40.409
Dave: But there's music being made, I think, that has like those themes. Still, it's just not in the realm of

629
00:53:40.510 --> 00:53:43.849
Dave: Goth, because I think Goth became kind of mainstream, which is against.

630
00:53:43.850 --> 00:53:44.380
greg: And what like.

631
00:53:44.380 --> 00:53:45.170
Dave: Presented.

632
00:53:45.390 --> 00:53:52.560
greg: What's sad is like, maybe because Goth and all these movements they represent, they kind of reflect what's going on in culture

633
00:53:52.730 --> 00:53:58.079
greg: and culture now is kind of lost a lot of its deeper meaning.

634
00:53:58.170 --> 00:54:10.259
greg: It is kind of vapid, and it is kind of surface level, and everything is. There's no like the whole thing of like searching for truth. That's part of like the Gothic nature, like, what is truth like? What is the point like? What is all these things.

635
00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:11.509
greg: and it's like

636
00:54:11.560 --> 00:54:28.780
greg: it nowadays more than ever. It's so hard like in a time where information is like at our fingertips. It's so hard to know what the truth is, because, you know, there's always more than one truth. If you're whatever truth you're looking for, you'll find. So then there is no truth. Yeah, it's a scary time.

637
00:54:29.320 --> 00:54:38.460
greg: It's sort of a scary time to be alive. So I mean, it's hard to have any kind of deep, meaningful reflection of that, and that's I don't know what that says about the state of

638
00:54:39.650 --> 00:54:40.800
greg: per question.

639
00:54:42.070 --> 00:54:42.800
Dave: So

640
00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:44.340
Dave: any

641
00:54:44.420 --> 00:54:45.870
Dave: final thoughts.

642
00:54:47.696 --> 00:54:51.000
greg: No, aside from

643
00:54:52.780 --> 00:55:00.300
greg: you know, it's I don't know. I think there's something valuable about looking at the dark side like I've said a million times, and

644
00:55:00.640 --> 00:55:08.970
greg: I'm excited that it's Halloween time, and we get to kind of do this for a little bit. And and instead of making us scared and freaked out. This is actually super enjoyable to do this.

645
00:55:10.090 --> 00:55:12.629
Dave: So we're gonna take a little bit of a

646
00:55:12.650 --> 00:55:21.319
Dave: a different turn right now, and we're gonna visit a piece of fan mail that we got there was actually something that

647
00:55:21.460 --> 00:55:32.100
Dave: we meant to get to a few episodes back. But we ran a little long in both of those episodes, so we decided that we're going to do it today, since we figured we could wrap up Goth on a little bit of a shorter time.

648
00:55:33.740 --> 00:55:37.000
Dave: you know. Just be warned. This is a pretty serious

649
00:55:37.110 --> 00:55:42.629
Dave: letter. So yeah, I'm just gonna go ahead and read it. And then Greg and I are going to give our thoughts.

650
00:55:43.120 --> 00:55:44.340
Dave: So

651
00:55:44.580 --> 00:55:51.080
Dave: this writer wrote, I'm not sure why I texted, I've been listening to your podcast and here

652
00:55:51.240 --> 00:55:54.129
Dave: encouraging listeners to text.

653
00:55:54.140 --> 00:55:57.369
Dave: I have 49 years of crazy, mean shit that I've been through.

654
00:55:57.420 --> 00:56:03.789
Dave: I have complex Ptsd general anxiety, disorder, Adhd and Major depressive disorder.

655
00:56:03.800 --> 00:56:12.279
Dave: I have. I had everyone I love die within 3 years of each other, my granny in 2013, my mom in 2024

656
00:56:12.360 --> 00:56:18.239
Dave: and July 10, th 2016, my boyfriend was found hanging from a clothesline pole.

657
00:56:18.900 --> 00:56:24.259
Dave: A whole lot of shit has happened in the past 10 years as much as I wanted to. I didn't give up.

658
00:56:24.340 --> 00:56:28.379
Dave: I was off the grid so long everything fell off my credit.

659
00:56:28.420 --> 00:56:46.989
Dave: I got hired at Amazon, and the money was life changing for me. I then worked on my credit card and wanted a good vehicle. I was able to drive off a lot with no down payment, and my payment is under $300, it should be one of the happiest months of my life. Instead, I am miserable and terrified. My vehicle has been in the shop 4 times in the 1st month I started having issues the 1st week.

660
00:56:47.489 --> 00:56:53.189
Dave: It's just been a nightmare from the beginning. And now all I want is to take this view back and put me in something that

661
00:56:53.500 --> 00:56:55.100
Dave: not gonna have problems with.

662
00:56:55.160 --> 00:56:59.369
Dave: I'm on the verge of losing my job at Amazon, having daily anxiety attacks.

663
00:56:59.470 --> 00:57:01.299
Dave: I don't have any family to help.

664
00:57:01.460 --> 00:57:06.589
Dave: not sure what if anything, y'all can do to help. But I thought, hoped y'all can.

665
00:57:08.070 --> 00:57:08.840
Dave: Okay.

666
00:57:09.340 --> 00:57:11.490
Dave: 1st off

667
00:57:13.030 --> 00:57:16.786
Dave: heavy, that's all. That's a lot of stuff that you've been through.

668
00:57:17.190 --> 00:57:19.086
Dave: yeah, when you said

669
00:57:19.900 --> 00:57:35.619
Dave: a lot of stuff has happened in the last 10 years. I mean, just just the overview of the losses and all the stuff that you just mentioned. That's a lot for anyone. So clearly, you know, empathizing on that end.

670
00:57:36.580 --> 00:57:37.530
Dave: you know.

671
00:57:38.170 --> 00:57:47.559
Dave: it's funny, because, like so many times in life, we get to this point where you know, we think things are starting to. Finally, get into a good place right?

672
00:57:48.030 --> 00:57:53.659
Dave: And we get our hopes up. And then, as soon as something negative happens, it's like

673
00:57:53.750 --> 00:57:55.299
Dave: I'm right back there again.

674
00:57:57.340 --> 00:58:01.330
Dave: I think it's important. And this I'm hoping this doesn't sound minimizing.

675
00:58:01.710 --> 00:58:04.500
Dave: Life is always going to

676
00:58:04.590 --> 00:58:06.510
Dave: have pain and suffering.

677
00:58:07.265 --> 00:58:14.199
Dave: And we can choose to focus on that pain and suffering and make that our existence, or we can

678
00:58:14.230 --> 00:58:19.110
Dave: understand that the pain and suffering is a part of the experience.

679
00:58:19.270 --> 00:58:23.910
Dave: But there are other things happening along the way as well that we should be looking for.

680
00:58:24.100 --> 00:58:25.819
Dave: So you know.

681
00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:28.209
Dave: one of the things I'll often ask people is

682
00:58:28.360 --> 00:58:34.680
Dave: in between these moments, where these negative things happen. Are you telling me nothing positive has happened at any point in your day?

683
00:58:35.433 --> 00:58:39.800
Dave: Nothing good, nothing mediocre, nothing just so-so.

684
00:58:39.950 --> 00:58:44.270
Dave: nothing went exactly how it was just supposed to go, and nothing more, nothing less.

685
00:58:44.860 --> 00:58:58.070
Dave: I would assume that at some point. Maybe you would have had one of those experiences. And the thing you when you start to look for those things, what you do find is they're happening way more often than you even realize. It's just our human brain is triggered to

686
00:58:58.110 --> 00:59:00.959
Dave: and like wired to. Just look for those negative things.

687
00:59:01.390 --> 00:59:02.359
greg: Of science, yeah.

688
00:59:02.360 --> 00:59:05.980
Dave: Just always, always. So that's for all of us, 1st of all.

689
00:59:06.500 --> 00:59:13.949
Dave: but you know, not to take away from anybody's pain and suffering because any of those things would probably, you know, be enough

690
00:59:13.980 --> 00:59:17.580
Dave: to, you know, cause a person that some distress.

691
00:59:17.660 --> 00:59:19.493
Dave: But it's important to remember.

692
00:59:20.400 --> 00:59:24.709
Dave: You can either choose to focus on those things and let those things become your existence.

693
00:59:24.780 --> 00:59:27.319
Dave: or you can like, I said, kind of move forward

694
00:59:27.400 --> 00:59:35.550
Dave: and start to continue to try to look to the the future, and that next positive thing, or the next thing that just went okay

695
00:59:35.600 --> 00:59:39.480
Dave: and try to keep going forward and continue carving your path in life.

696
00:59:39.860 --> 00:59:46.560
Dave: knowing that at some point there's gonna be bumps in the road at some point. There's gonna be some some troubling event that's gonna happen.

697
00:59:47.380 --> 01:00:03.999
Dave: And that's okay. That doesn't mean that has to end your journey. That doesn't mean that just because you know the cars in the shop that everything's gonna go down the tubes. We have to understand that like that's gonna happen. And then all this other stuff still needs to have like be taken care of along the way. I still need to move forward.

698
01:00:05.520 --> 01:00:19.769
Dave: That is a lot, though, so you know, I I hope that this, like I said this was a few weeks that this was written to us, so I hope that this person is still kind of continuing to go forward and not allowing those those road bumps to completely block their way.

699
01:00:20.500 --> 01:00:24.139
greg: No, Dave, that's actually really well well said, and the only thing I would add is

700
01:00:24.310 --> 01:00:25.400
greg: that

701
01:00:26.140 --> 01:00:36.159
greg: we have been thinking about you. I hope that you understand that the nature of the text feature does not allow for us to respond back. So

702
01:00:36.600 --> 01:00:40.959
greg: we couldn't have done that if we wanted to, and we would have if we could have. That's for sure.

703
01:00:42.800 --> 01:00:45.109
Dave: Yeah, ideally, is like, you know, I,

704
01:00:45.140 --> 01:00:56.620
Dave: if if anyone listeners are like, why are they reading this out loud? This sounds like a private conversation. We we can't text back to to someone that goes writes to the Fan mail. So this is the only way we can communicate with that person that wrote this.

705
01:00:56.870 --> 01:01:07.950
greg: Yeah. And we want you to know that we listened and we thought about it. And we're thinking of you. And we're we're hoping, you know the best for you, and you're not alone. We talked to so many people who are going through

706
01:01:08.030 --> 01:01:10.759
greg: similar situations, and

707
01:01:10.920 --> 01:01:22.449
greg: you know we're all kind of in this together, and just keep pushing forward like Dave said, and try your best. I mean you. You have to understand, too, that, like you do have that agency that you use to sort of get yourself off your feet and

708
01:01:22.690 --> 01:01:32.589
greg: and get a job at Amazon, and did all get a job. Get a car and not have to put any money down like these are all incredible accomplishments that you've you were able to do. So. Let's let's not like discount that

709
01:01:32.630 --> 01:01:35.059
greg: and try to parlay that into something else. I mean.

710
01:01:35.670 --> 01:01:38.590
greg: you know, that agency is what's gonna keep you

711
01:01:38.730 --> 01:01:43.720
greg: keep you going like that, finding what's important, and just keep working towards that. That's.

712
01:01:43.720 --> 01:01:57.389
Dave: Rather than looking at those events as things that are like finalized. Those events are actually just proof that you can achieve. You can continue to make improvement to your life like

713
01:01:57.550 --> 01:02:09.299
Dave: the Amazon job, even if you lose that job which hopefully you don't. And hopefully you didn't. But if you did. That does not mean that that is the final job you will ever get in your life, that it's actually more of a just a

714
01:02:09.480 --> 01:02:13.689
Dave: a moment that happened that kind of showed you. You can

715
01:02:14.000 --> 01:02:14.570
Dave: get a job.

716
01:02:14.570 --> 01:02:19.540
greg: And everything, and everything that you go through is making you stronger, and then it's hard to see that. But.

717
01:02:20.280 --> 01:02:22.159
Dave: The panic attacks are

718
01:02:22.550 --> 01:02:27.870
Dave: a product of a couple of things. Right? So fear. Right?

719
01:02:28.200 --> 01:02:36.829
Dave: It's all that. What ifs? And if you're constantly focused on everything that's going wrong in your life. I can only imagine what those what ifs must be looking like right

720
01:02:37.080 --> 01:02:45.939
Dave: like, oh, my God, I'm gonna lose my job. Oh, my God! My car is is like, you know, going through all this. I'm losing so much money through all this process. All that stuff.

721
01:02:46.030 --> 01:02:51.699
Dave: That's where you know that fear comes in because it's like what is going to be the what's gonna happen next. What's gonna happen next?

722
01:02:51.850 --> 01:02:57.990
Dave: That's why, it's like really important that, like we're talking about reframing the way that you look at life, reframing the way you're looking at your days.

723
01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:15.187
Dave: trying to find those moments of positive. Even if that moment of positive is, you go through a drive through to get a coffee, and your coffee is actually made the way you ordered it. Honestly, that's an achievement right there, because how many times you go there? And it's like the wrong thing on a day you really needed that coffee right?

724
01:03:15.470 --> 01:03:21.699
Dave: so like those moments are things that like help us kind of remember, like, all right, not everything's going to shit.

725
01:03:23.480 --> 01:03:25.740
Dave: What else. Do you think about the panic attacks, Greg?

726
01:03:27.450 --> 01:03:32.020
Dave: What would be a word of advice if someone's telling you have the panic attacks? I know you're so good with that stuff.

727
01:03:32.020 --> 01:03:36.239
greg: Well, I mean the way I view panic is just never retreat from it

728
01:03:36.320 --> 01:03:49.989
greg: always, never let it slow you down, and every single one you have is an opportunity to never have a panic again, because every time you retreat from it it's it's signaling to your brain that you're right. This is a lot of negativity out here, and it's it's almost like

729
01:03:50.000 --> 01:04:11.079
greg: that's just trying to protect you that that panic is just trying to protect you. But you have to sort of get in the frame of mind of. I don't thank you for trying to protect me, but I have things I need to do, and in order to change my life for the better, I need to get out there and face these things. It's it's so hard I would love to have like a sit down conversation with this person. I know we would both like to, and just kind of like really

730
01:04:11.834 --> 01:04:18.460
greg: kind of hear what they have to say back to these suggestions, because it's like when we could take the conversation in a different way. But

731
01:04:20.150 --> 01:04:25.030
greg: maybe it's enough to know that we're we're hearing you, and we do care.

732
01:04:25.290 --> 01:04:26.440
greg: And

733
01:04:26.650 --> 01:04:29.230
greg: you know, we're all we're like. I really do believe, Dave, like

734
01:04:29.520 --> 01:04:43.469
greg: every time it's it's literally to the person where like this gets hard, right? We spend a lot of time putting these episodes together, and you know we both have full time jobs. We don't. It's not like we're we're rolling in it. We don't, you know. We don't do this for the money that's for damn sure.

735
01:04:44.800 --> 01:04:54.740
greg: So when someone like we do care about every single person who reaches out. And we talk about it. And and it's it's like we are kind of all in this together. So you got a community here

736
01:04:54.970 --> 01:05:05.969
greg: of people who really are looking to feel you know better. You're not listening to this. Podcast if if you haven't ever had any bit of mental angst right? I mean, you're just not. You just wouldn't find it.

737
01:05:06.030 --> 01:05:13.469
greg: So you're in a community, and and we hope things are going well for you and keep us updated. And if you want a message, the either email or

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greg: you know, Instagram, yeah, maybe.

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Dave: Utgn podcast@gmail.com. If you want to email us.

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Dave: Alright and Greg, we also had a couple of people write reviews. So you definitely want to give them shout outs as well. If you want to read those.

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greg: Okay. So this one is from Jennifer Rhodes. And she says, I came across this podcast while taking a theories class in grad school. Last year I listened to the Freud Adler and Frankel shows as a supplement to my weekly lectures. Well, I was hooked. Now I listen for the joy of learning. I am a seeker and take your suggestions on diving deeper into each topic. Thanks for the act. Podcast I am also in recovery and acceptance

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greg: is a big part of moving on and finding new meaning in my life today. Yes, all that happened to me. But look where I am because of that.

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greg: See, that's a good little message there. I sought out this path to help others suffering from

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greg: substance use disorders and other mental health issues. This is a way to get out of the darkness. Love, you guys feel like we're old friends now. And that's true. We do. Yeah,

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greg: let me see, is there another one? Yes.

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greg: this is from? Oh, no! We talked about the chirp murming.

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Dave: Yeah, the you know. The only other one we had was there was another fan mail. I don't want to read this entire fan mail, because it's kind of personal but I just want to give a shout out, it's from a returning fan mail person from Winder Georgia, who just kind of wanted to

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Dave: throw out a recommendation. And like, I said, I'm not. Gonna actually, I can throw out what his recommendation was. He actually asked if we would do an ex an episode on maybe porn addiction

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Dave: or just addiction in general. And I do think that's a super good recommendation, I think both, but, like.

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Dave: you know, porn addiction is a thing so.

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greg: There is.

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Dave: Is definitely something we can add to our list.

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greg: It is. Yeah.

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Dave: We haven't really done addictions at all.

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Dave: have we?

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greg: No, we no. We talked about a little bit ironically in the Jekyll and Hyde episode, but other than that.

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Dave: Like, not a full full.

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Dave: So yeah, we gotta we gotta do some addiction stuff that's gambling

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Dave: so many.

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Dave: I don't know why. That's.

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greg: Heroin it could think of.

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Dave: My head. Yeah.

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Dave: well, we didn't even do drugs.

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greg: I know, I know.

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Dave: Anything. We promoted drugs with shrooms and.

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greg: Oh, yeah. So we did see Ketamine, you know.

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Dave: Ketamine.

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Dave: Geez! We're terrible

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Dave: alright, everybody. Thank you so much for tuning in as always. You know, we always appreciate any kind of contact. So Greg already mentioned, if you want to, you know, message us on social media or on the Famil or Utgm podcast@gmail.com to email us, but also

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Dave: we're really hoping for people to continue to write reviews and ratings, especially on Apple. You can actually write the review for us to be able to read on the air

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Dave: and give you a shout out, but it does help us so much with getting this you know, continuing to get it out to wider audiences. So it's it's very appreciated and helpful if you do. And there's also the subscriptions through buzzsprout web page, which I think is there's a link for it on our Instagram, social media, or whatever.

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Dave: and that's about it. So everybody have a great night. We'll be back

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Dave: with another spooky, spooky episode next week.

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Dave: Enjoy your mountain dew, everybody. It's voodoo season.

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Dave: He's out

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Dave: bye.

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greg: But if.