Guide to Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT)

Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) is a theoretical approach to psychotherapy that involves accepting your thoughts and feelings, mindfulness, and moving towards your ultimate goals using your newly identified values as a compass. Join Dave and Greg as they discuss this evidence based therapeutic approach.

Transcript

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Dave Lizotte: Hey, everybody! Welcome to the unconventional therapist guide to nothing. My name is Dave, and I'm joined here with my co-host. His name is Greg. He wears a hat

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Dave Lizotte: indoors.

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gregc: That's right.

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Dave Lizotte: Do you wear it at restaurants while you're eating.

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gregc: I do, and sometimes I do feel a little off like Tony Soprano's gonna come over and say, you can't do that here.

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Dave Lizotte: Smack you in the back of the head.

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gregc: Yeah, no, I you know, I think at this point in our culture, it's okay to wear hat wherever you want.

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Dave Lizotte: Oh, oh, you you hat wearers! Decided to make that okay.

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gregc: There is a bold brotherhood, and we do kind of have an idea of like what's appropriate and what's not.

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Dave Lizotte: The golf cap, boys.

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gregc: The golf camp, boys. Yeah. So I think that I'm

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gregc: I am trying to kind of stray away from it. I don't know if you noticed my exposure therapy like sometimes we haven't done in a while. I know you have problems, but if I do.

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Dave Lizotte: Your head.

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gregc: Yeah, like, I'll do a reel, and like, it'll just be not only you, the planet, or our or 400 likes, or whatever it gets, but.

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Dave Lizotte: Get a pretty high level of distress every time I see it.

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Dave Lizotte: Bye.

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gregc: Yeah, you know, I told I told you I must have told you that story about that one time. That guy really threw me off, and I.

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Dave Lizotte: Yeah, I tell people that story.

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gregc: He's like.

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Dave Lizotte: Gonna are you gonna give me therapy or fight me.

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gregc: Yeah, yeah. And I was like, Oh, boy.

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Dave Lizotte: Somebody asked me why you always wear a hat, and I I told them that story. I thought it was hilarious.

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gregc: Yeah, I mean, but it kind of put me in a weird spot.

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gregc: because you.

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Dave Lizotte: Did you did actually fight him later.

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gregc: And I did. Yeah, I was like.

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Dave Lizotte: And he's like I knew it.

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gregc: -

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Dave Lizotte: I never trust you bald guys.

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gregc: Can't judge a book by its cover. Apparently you can.

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Dave Lizotte: Wait, wait, wait, so.

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gregc: Go ahead. I'm sorry.

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Dave Lizotte: So is it is the problem here

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Dave Lizotte: that you wear the hat to avoid the feelings of judgment that you feel are gonna be passed on. You.

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gregc: Yeah. So any way you slice it, I see what you're doing there. The psychoanalysis. We're not doing that this week.

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Dave Lizotte: No, no, actually, Greg, I'm doing exactly what this topic is.

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gregc: Oh, you are!

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Dave Lizotte: I'm actually suggesting that

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Dave Lizotte: maybe part of this, Greg, is that you stop avoiding

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Dave Lizotte: those, the fear of being judged, and you learn how to have acceptance that, hey? My head is bald. Yeah. Any little hairs do not grow out of my scalp and form

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Dave Lizotte: luscious locks.

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gregc: My hair grows out. I look like a dandelion, and maybe there's something beautiful about that

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gregc: right.

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Dave Lizotte: Yeah, yeah, you look like a dandelion.

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gregc: Yeah, you know those jobs.

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Dave Lizotte: That's not a dandelion.

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gregc: What is that?

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Dave Lizotte: I can't remember the name of those the C. Where, like the C.

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gregc: Yeah, yeah.

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Dave Lizotte: Yeah, that's not a dandy.

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gregc: But it was part of the phase of dandelion development.

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Dave Lizotte: I mean, I feel like you look more like

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Dave Lizotte: like a peach right.

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gregc: Well, we're we're on Youtube, right?

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Dave Lizotte: Don't do it, don't do it. Oh, he did it!

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Dave Lizotte: The hair! The hat is off.

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gregc: And now it's back on.

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Dave Lizotte: He. He stroked his smooth scalp.

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Dave Lizotte: I'm I'm doing that for the.

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gregc: Coming in around.

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Dave Lizotte: Oh, boy, excellent! All right.

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Dave Lizotte: So, Greg, what was I trying to get you to accept? There? What was that all about?

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gregc: That was.

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gregc: I would. I guess you could say an intervention.

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gregc: you know, an intervention that would be used for with acceptance and commitment therapy. Right? Yeah.

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gregc: doing a little thing here.

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gregc: Let me see.

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gregc: Yeah, Dave. So today we're gonna be talking a little bit about acceptance and commitment therapy I'm gonna get into like like, talk about this a little bit, maybe a little bit of an introduction. I know you're not used to that. Actually, you should be very used to that.

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Dave Lizotte: All you do. Yeah.

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gregc: Yeah, it's what I do. Developed in the eighties, which I think is fascinating. There's this guy, Stephen Hayes. And normally, we do this kind of great little

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gregc: history, and and talk about this person's development and everything like that. But this, this is a this is coming out of the eighties. So if you want to understand Stephen Hayes like thoughts on this, you don't have like.

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Dave Lizotte: Go ask him.

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gregc: You can just go ask them. Really.

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Dave Lizotte: Literally, he's literally a lot alive, and we'll talk about it. Probably.

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gregc: Isn't. Isn't there something to that? That's kind of interesting. I was like, let me see, like, I want to listen to a podcast about this, too, like this morning, like, while I'm getting ready for this one, because I had kind of done the research out of a book for this.

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gregc: and not to brag. But

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gregc: I'm like, all right. So I go through like these podcasts and and there's 1, that's like Stephen Hayes. And like Stephen Hayes, he's talking on this podcast, about.

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Dave Lizotte: He doesn't. He's done a lot of podcasts. Actually, I was actually surprised about the amount of interviews I was like, he could probably come on here.

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Dave Lizotte: And then I realized

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Dave Lizotte: who we are, and I was like, alright. Well.

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gregc: What! Who would that benefit?

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Dave Lizotte: I mean I mean.

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gregc: Let me!

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Dave Lizotte: Take myself self a step down for a second. Because, yeah.

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gregc: No, I mean, look, you never know. Right? So throughout the course of modern psychology.

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gregc: and that's we're gonna start that with like guys like Wilhelm Bunt. I mean, we're when we talk about modern psychology. I just mean, like when it takes that transition from philosophy to psychology and actual science. Right?

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gregc: We get, you know. We'll we'll start at Freud, actually, because he's the real father of modern psychology. As far as we're concerned, I think right.

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gregc: So when we talk about Freud, his ideas about thoughts are they're needed. They're they need to be interpreted. They're important. They they say something about us.

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gregc: and then you run into guys as this develops, people like Ellis and Beck and other creators of Cbt are like.

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gregc: well, and even David Burns, who we're both a big fan of.

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gregc: they would say, well, these thoughts.

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gregc: they're not as meaningful as Freud would have you believe. Maybe they're not correct all the time. Maybe there's something about them that we need to challenge and work and see if there's, you know, another interpretation of these thoughts.

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gregc: And

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gregc: then, as time goes on.

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gregc: right.

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gregc: What happens is there comes a philosophy or an even more modern idea of therapy, which I think everyone would be upset with all the quote unquote fathers of therapy is that maybe just maybe

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gregc: your thoughts don't mean anything at all.

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gregc: and that's 1 component of this, and I know that's not like a great encapsulation of what this is, but I find that part of this

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gregc: extremely useful, for, like panic, disorder, and

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gregc: Ocd especially, but we'll we'll get into all that.

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Dave Lizotte: Okay.

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gregc: I mean, what do you think about that, Dave? Like? Because that's a that's kind of a radical sort of claim

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gregc: that. And I'm going to get into that more later, when we talk about some of the components of this. But your thoughts are are meaningless.

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Dave Lizotte: Yeah, I mean, you're the 1st person I've heard say that.

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gregc: Hmm.

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Dave Lizotte: Specifically I do. I have heard and you know it. I know a lot of this is about like our relationship to our thoughts.

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gregc: And.

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Dave Lizotte: And trying to make our thoughts less impactful, has a lot to do with that, or just try to reframe or reconnect

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Dave Lizotte: thoughts to different experiences or different ways to look at it, to lower the intensity of certain symptoms that we experience.

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gregc: Yeah, no see. And you know, whenever I talk about thoughts this way, it does come off kind of confusing. But I thought about this today literally.

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gregc: if I had a handful of change, right? Just quarters and nickels and dimes and pennies, and whatever else and

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gregc: you know, think about those as my thoughts. And I said to you.

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gregc: Dave, get me a soda, and you know let's just pretend the soda's a quarter, or whatever right that's all you could use, you would look at my hand, and you wouldn't judge the penny. You wouldn't judge the dime. You wouldn't judge the nickel, you would look at them, and you would grab the quarter.

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gregc: And you would say, I'm going to take this one because this one is what's useful. This one's what's actionable.

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gregc: And this is the one that makes sense like the rest of this stuff. They're my thoughts. Yeah.

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gregc: they're there, but they don't really mean anything unless I need them, and I can use them. And they're actionable. So they mean things, you know. In fact, thoughts mean nothing and everything at the same time, because we? We can have those thoughts, and we can grab onto that nickel and be like, all right. I'm holding this nickel, and it won't get in the machine. It's not getting me anywhere, and it's like, well, why, even bother with it? Just leave it there. Don't let it don't get upset that all those other, you know coins are there. Just take the one that you need. Take the one that's useful to you and use it.

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Dave Lizotte: You're right. So that's where I think like the idea that thoughts don't matter.

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Dave Lizotte: Kind of like doesn't really fit that

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Dave Lizotte: that description right there.

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Dave Lizotte: I do think thoughts matter, because they are literally the

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Dave Lizotte: the channel. They're like the the thing that channels our emotions. Right? So the thought leads to the emotion. We all understand that that seems to make a lot of sense.

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gregc: The emotion leads to the thought.

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Dave Lizotte: Or the emotion can lead to a thought. Absolutely

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Dave Lizotte: right? So there's there's obviously a relationship between the 2 things.

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Dave Lizotte: I think that we put too much emphasis on our thoughts at times. And I think what you're saying about the change is exactly right.

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Dave Lizotte: If the thought isn't useful to us, we have to look for another thought that is more useful. That will help us have a different experience, and that is what is a big part of I feel like act. It's a big part of Cbt, it's a big part of like so many different things, because that is essentially it. It's finding the more useful thought.

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gregc: Yeah. And also part of act, too, is if we're gonna keep stick with the change analogy. Because I think this is kind of working right? So you're looking at all that change in your hand. And Cbt. Would want you to to say like.

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gregc: Oh, well, maybe this you know, you're like, well, maybe this Canadian quarter will work like, let's, is this possible? And it's like, Well, yeah, I guess that's possible. But like, would it be more useful to use this quarter. So you're you're hanging out with these coins. And what what act is like is like? Who cares that there's all those coins there

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gregc: like. Don't try to. Don't even worry about those coins. Just leave them there. Take what you need and move on, but we'll get into them.

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Dave Lizotte: So, so just kind of in the realm of what you're describing. I was going to say this later, but I'll say it now.

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Dave Lizotte: So act suggests that it's the private experience. And the reason why they say private is because it's individual to each one of us. We're not. None of us are going to have the same exact experience

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Dave Lizotte: with a symptom meaning which could be like depression, anxiety. Ocd. Symptoms. Whatever the symptom may pain, anything

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Dave Lizotte: is that what leads to the struggle with the symptom? So it's that experience we have with the symptom that leads us to the struggle. And when they say experience. It's the way that we think about it. It's the way that it maybe it makes us overwhelmed at times. So that's what causes leads to the struggle with that specific symptom, and the aim of act

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Dave Lizotte: is to transform that relationship

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Dave Lizotte: either with difficult thoughts or feelings.

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Dave Lizotte: learn to perceive them as harmless, even if that's uncomfortable and as well, and also transient psychological events.

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gregc: Yes.

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gregc: this is Hetty, and you know, and you're already sounding it. I think maybe we're both sounding it.

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gregc: One of the drawbacks of act, and we don't have to get into drawbacks right now. But, as you hear us describe it, it's like

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gregc: this guy, Stephen Hayes. He is brilliant, but he it's it's very heady. That's the problem with it.

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Dave Lizotte: I think that you and I

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Dave Lizotte: cause I I've heard some other people describe it.

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Dave Lizotte: I'm not going to say better.

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Dave Lizotte: but differently than I've heard him describe it.

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gregc: Yeah.

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Dave Lizotte: In a way that I was able to digest it easier. And I think you and I can do that with some examples and just using different language. But we'll obviously have to keep each other in check. Because, as you just said, even as we're listening to each other, we're probably thinking, Oh, wow! Alright! We might lose some people. And this is a really valuable approach. So I don't want to lose people. I actually think

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Dave Lizotte: we utilize this? Probably before we even knew we were utilizing some of this.

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gregc: Yeah, yeah, because it's action. Really, it's all about action. It branches off some of the versions of behavioral and cognitive therapies that we use all the time. But the idea is to stop struggling like you're saying, or even avoiding your emotions or thoughts just instead accept them. And I think we will talk about this word more because it's like a huge part of this.

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gregc: But the word acceptance it doesn't. It's that's sometimes people are thinking like, all right. So I just have to accept this. It's almost like a resignation like, oh, like fine! I give up. But that's not it at all. It's almost like accepting something as a gift or like a power shift. It's, you know, if something terrible happens to you.

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gregc: you like like, even if you think of something really terrible, like a trauma like a rape, or or, you see, you witness something horrible, or you're abused, or whatever it's like.

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gregc: How do I accept something like that. Well, I mean.

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gregc: it's not your fault that anything happened to you.

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gregc: but it is your responsibility to sort of

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gregc: take what you can, and, you know.

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gregc: create a life right? That's how you get your power back by by not letting whatever happened to you define you. It's like it could have happened to you. You can never sort of be away from that. That's always going to be a part of you, but you have to accept it, and it's it's a really hard

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gregc: sort of concept to wrap your head around. But I guess what I'm saying is like.

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gregc: say, say, you're like, I can't accept that it's like, well, what's the alternative

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gregc: to to what's to not accept it like? Is that possible?

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Dave Lizotte: Well.

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Dave Lizotte: and I think that's such a big part of this is, I think, that what act suggests is that by denying, by rejecting, by avoiding

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Dave Lizotte: we're making our symptoms worse. So that acceptance is I'm no longer going to avoid the discomfort, avoid the pain, avoid the negativity

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Dave Lizotte: instead, I'm going to.

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Dave Lizotte: I guess embrace would be another word you could use

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Dave Lizotte: in a hope that my relationship to that negative feeling is going to change.

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Dave Lizotte: and I will experience it in a better way, in a way that's more fulfilling to my own personal life. Right? And also, Greg. One of the things I have to accept is at some point in the podcast you

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Dave Lizotte: shorten and you become just a head, a talking head on the screen. I don't know how.

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gregc: I don't know how that happens. Right? I and you'll look. That's something you're just gonna accept

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gregc: right.

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Dave Lizotte: There's no chance that you you're you can grow up a little bit.

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gregc: That's that's it.

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Dave Lizotte: On the screen.

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gregc: Alright let me see.

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Dave Lizotte: It's like you're a tiny person.

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gregc: Sorry

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gregc: you'll look what you're talking about. There is.

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Dave Lizotte: There you go!

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gregc: It is. It is hard to have this, because we don't want to sound like

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gregc: mean right? So we're not saying you. You have to accept these terrible things that happen to you. You have to accept. You know everything, but

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gregc: I mean, if you're denying it, and you're, you know, repressing it, and you're, you know, constantly trying to like fix it and deal with it. Then you're staying engaged with that thing right? So it's like.

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gregc: like, if I want. You know there's this great part of folklore where, like a vampire, you know, if if you're if you're trying to hide from a vampire in folklore. You could throw some rice on the ground, or you could throw some sand on the ground, and they have to turn around, and they have to count all that. And so they're stuck there. They're dealing with that when their goal, their purpose, their values, are suggesting that they find you and kill you right. And I'm not saying that's who we are. But what I'm saying is

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gregc: like, if we spend all our lives entangled with these things that we want to fix about ourselves that we want to sort of. You know. I don't want this to be here. I hate this part of me. I wish that this didn't happen to me, and you stay like you're trying to always fix that. And you're trying to always manage that. Well, what you're doing is you're keeping it fresh and present in your life when it's like you have a part of what acceptance is. Is this happened to me?

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gregc: I want to identify my values. I want to figure out how I can still live a meaningful life, and I want to make be, take actionable steps towards that.

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gregc: and and step away from this, and then, as I do that, and as my life progresses and I'm living in accordance with my values, then maybe this has less power over me. And that person or that thing that happened to me doesn't have power over me anymore, because I'm living my life in a way that I'm taking power again, right.

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Dave Lizotte: I'm still trying to get over the fact that you said the vampires trying to kill you. Aren't they actually doing the opposite and trying to give you eternal vampire life.

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gregc: Always the the optimist.

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gregc: Right? You're always the horror advocate, aren't you?

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Dave Lizotte: Aren't they? Aren't they going to turn you into a vampire? And then you live forever.

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gregc: They're gonna feed on your blood and still your motor soul.

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Dave Lizotte: You know I never understood that they it's like they choose to to kill some people, but then other people they give eternal life to how do you? You just.

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gregc: Should I hang out with this person for eternity? Maybe. All right, let's give him the works and let them live, could I? If it's an absolute no. Then they got to kill them. That's how it works.

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Dave Lizotte: Got to accept that.

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gregc: Got to accept it. So there's a lot of acceptance going on. So here's a great quote from Hayes, and you can see how heady this guy is we, as a culture, seem to be dedicated to the idea that negative human emotions need to be fixed, managed, or changed.

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gregc: not experience as part of a whole life. So we get stuck approaching our problems like this. And if we would eliminate our sadness or angst, so like, that's the thing that people kind of forget.

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gregc: It's like, well, if I could get rid of this trauma, and if I could get rid of this sadness, and if I could get rid of this, you know anxiety. I will be happy. But that doesn't necessarily like the absence of that thing doesn't mean that you're gonna be happy, right?

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gregc: You have to actively create your happiness through doing things that are, you know, based on your values that are meaningful to you.

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gregc: So it's that's an interesting part of this.

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Dave Lizotte: 2 2 things first, st as far as that goes, like there's been so many times I've worked with individuals on their depression.

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Dave Lizotte: and then, once their depression's kind of like lifted.

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Dave Lizotte: they report either like well, first, st so many people end up also identifying that they have extreme anxiety and anxiety is almost worse than depression. They almost wish the depression would come back, because that was maybe numbing the anxiety. Yeah. But then, also that I've heard people say like, but I don't necessarily feel happy.

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Dave Lizotte: I'm kind of like, like in the middle somewhere. And I'm like, yeah, because happiness is about fulfillment.

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gregc: It's.

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Dave Lizotte: Not about

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Dave Lizotte: not being depressed.

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Dave Lizotte: Yeah, sure, depression is quite the opposite of happiness, I guess, in some ways, but because you can't even like, get into the things that maybe would provide you with fulfillment. But once your depression lifts, you still got to go out and find joy, find happiness, you can't just expect it to to come.

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Dave Lizotte: And then

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Dave Lizotte: yeah. Then I forgot the second thing I was gonna say, but that was, I guess that was the main piece that

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gregc: Yeah, no, I know. And it's it is. It's it's it's such an interesting thing, because it's not about

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gregc: feeling good. We keep. We keep coming across this thing where it's like, people are like, I just want to feel good. Yeah,

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Dave Lizotte: Feeling good, is is work.

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gregc: To feel good. Well, so feeling good without work is shameful. Right? So when you I had this patient recently, who has a

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gregc: who's maybe doing a little bit too much of he's looking at

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gregc: Porn, but that's.

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Dave Lizotte: Not feeling good. That's instant gratification.

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gregc: So, yeah, so that's that is pleasure. Right? So he he.

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Dave Lizotte: It's not joy. He's not sitting there going. I'm going to remember this memory forever.

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gregc: Right. So it's like.

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Dave Lizotte: That memory did not last him long.

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gregc: But that's people. That's what people are saying when they just want this to end or that to end like, I just wanna feel good. Well, you can't. If you just feel good without like

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gregc: the work, it's it's shameful like that same person doesn't feel shameful when he, you know, instead holds off and has sex with his girlfriend right? He feels he feels completely

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gregc: happy when he does that, and that's because he's getting the same sort of pleasure, but it's in accordance with his values, and he's kind of like having to do some kind of something that like aligns with his values to get that same sense of pleasure and skipping the values and acting outside of your values to get that pleasure. Not that anybody should have to feel bad about, you know masturbation, but you know.

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Dave Lizotte: I think we're kind of getting off on like something that might not totally fit this, because we're also now we're kind of going into like instant gratification, which then leads into that whole like that's like dopamine hits versus.

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gregc: Yeah, no, you're right. Like.

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Dave Lizotte: Feelings of joy. You know what I mean.

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gregc: So it's not about. So let's just say it's it's not about just to kind of like, get us back on track. It's not about wrestling, your emotions and your past traumas. It's more about

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gregc: optimism. Value is going to pay play a huge role in this goals and action. And all you really need to get.

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Dave Lizotte: You said the thing about the before we get way too far from it. You said the thing about society kind of kind of thinking we need to fix.

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gregc: Negative.

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Dave Lizotte: But I also think there's a part of us that are wired that way, and I'll often talk about how I probably have said it on here before. I feel like the brain is wired to look for all the negative experiences, and I don't know that that's necessarily a societal thing. I think that's kind of just how humans

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Dave Lizotte: operate like cause I'm sure that would be. Probably.

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Dave Lizotte: you know, in any culture, any any country. I'm sure that we would probably find something similar. We are hardwired to hyper focus on the negatives which, if we're hardwired that way, it makes sense that we are also hardwired to want to fix that negative

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Dave Lizotte: which, like, when a parent's constantly re correcting their kid versus

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Dave Lizotte: looking for all the only the positive things to reinforce like it's work. You have to retrain your brain to do something that maybe is not natural or 1st or instinctual to do. I don't know if that would be the best way to say it.

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gregc: You can't.

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Dave Lizotte: Work.

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gregc: It is but like, I think, that what act is trying to say is this, can't be an internal thing like you can't fix your.

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gregc: You know your thoughts

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gregc: by thinking about your thoughts.

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Dave Lizotte: Yeah, well, I'm I'm in agreement with this. I just feel like I don't want people to think that what he's suggesting is they're doing something inherently wrong, because then that also goes into a negative thing. They think they need to fix.

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gregc: Right, which I.

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Dave Lizotte: Is like totally against this. But I do think what it is suggesting is that the way that our outlook

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Dave Lizotte: you know, kind of

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Dave Lizotte: gravitates to, we do need to put work into trying to

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Dave Lizotte: look for a different way to approach it, so that we we avoid always like focusing on the negative and then focusing on the need to fix the negative.

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gregc: Right. And it's really like distilled down, too. It's not just accepting everything. It's it's accepting the things that you cannot change almost like that.

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gregc: Yeah. You know, alcohol's anonymous, anonymous thing. Where like you? Yeah, there's gonna be some things that if you can change it. Yeah. But

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gregc: it's not spending as much time wrapped up in your thoughts and being as actionable as you can, and finding values are going to be a huge part of it. But the biggest sort of component of this

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gregc: is psychological flexibility.

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gregc: And this has 6 core concepts.

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gregc: And all psychological flexibility is is just this openness and ability to adapt to your thoughts and behaviors.

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gregc: to better align with your goals and your values. So to get started on this, all you need is like mindfulness you need

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gregc: and values. Right? So

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gregc: identifying your value is going to be a huge part of this. There's a million different ways to do that. Sometimes I have people, you know. Maybe you know, recently I've been having people because I got that idea from my own therapist is, you know, if you have 24 h left to live. What are you going to do? That kind of helps identify your values, I think of? Who do you admire in your life? Who are your heroes?

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gregc: What are those characteristics about those people that you appreciate? There you go. There's some of your values like it's kind of. It's kind of easy to get down to people's values easier than you might think.

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gregc: But the 1st realm of psychological flexibility and there's 6 is something we've been talking about all along here at Dave, and that's acceptance. Now.

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gregc: what what do you think I mean? Is there? Have we said enough about this, or is there anything you want to add to that.

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Dave Lizotte: Yeah. So I mean the in the intensity

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Dave Lizotte: acceptance along the lines of you know.

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Dave Lizotte: accepting the thoughts instead of trying to avoid avoid them.

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Dave Lizotte: because the the intense, the intensity of the avoidance is

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Dave Lizotte: What actually increases the discomfort, the pain, the negative emotion, so embracing the fear and pain and moving forward builds empowerment

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Dave Lizotte: which thus will improve hopefully your outlook on life, your outlook on

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Dave Lizotte: that symptom, or whatever it is that you're suffering with, and hopefully, it will change that relationship. And it's not that it's necessarily going to go away, but you will experience it in a different way. That won't be as intense, and it's really important to for people to understand. Every time you avoid fear.

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Dave Lizotte: it reinforces that fear. So.

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Dave Lizotte: for example,

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Dave Lizotte: If I'm afraid of roller coasters

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Dave Lizotte: and everybody's hopping on a roller coaster every time I avoid going on that roller coaster, that roller coaster seems scarier and scarier to me to the point that it's in my head that this thing is going to probably kill me if I ever go on it now, whereas if I face that fear and go on it.

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Dave Lizotte: even though I don't want to. I might not enjoy roller coasters, but at least now I know I will survive going on this roller coaster, and my my relationship with that roller coaster is no longer. Now that the point where I feel like this is the thing that's going to end my existence right.

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gregc: And you can have a fear of something and still do it. That's another thing. You kind of learn through that process.

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Dave Lizotte: Exactly. So, my relationship going forward with it. And like, obviously, that example is pretty benign. It's not gonna hinder my life in any way. If I never go on a roller coaster, it's just a thing that I could ex. I could accept, or I could, you know, you know, choose to

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Dave Lizotte: dabble in here and there. But what we have to ask ourselves is.

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Dave Lizotte: what has avoidance cost me.

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Dave Lizotte: So, talking from personal experience, I was kind of thinking about like oh, what things do I avoid in life? And like, how? What does that cost me? And I'm pretty open about this. I'm like super conflict avoided. I say it to anybody who asks like when they you know wherever we're talking about this I totally relate to people who are conflict avoidance.

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Dave Lizotte: What does it cost me?

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Dave Lizotte: Well.

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Dave Lizotte: probably accepting things that

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Dave Lizotte: I shouldn't have to accept, probably missed opportunities.

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Dave Lizotte: so many things, so many things, but you know what it's cost me even more

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Dave Lizotte: unneeded anxiety, because I get anxiety over those situations, whereas if I just face them, embrace them.

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Dave Lizotte: worked on going forward, knowing that I'm conflict avoidant. But it's something that like I should try to try to embrace and do.

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Dave Lizotte: I would probably feel a lot different. And I wouldn't get the high levels of anxiety I get about it today.

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Dave Lizotte: So.

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gregc: That's actually perfect. That's a perfect example. Actually, I really like that. And and part of the acceptance for you is like, Hey, look, this is this is part of who I am.

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gregc: do I want to accept that? Yeah. But do I want them to get it? Now now that my values are shifting. I'm discovering new values, and maybe I want more for my my future. I have to accept that. That's part of me, and it's going to be hard to do the things I want to do, but because my values are becoming stronger, like all right. So I don't want any more missed opportunities. So

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gregc: I might have to live with a little bit of discomfort while I'm pursuing these values. But in the end I'm gonna get what I want right? I accept that. It's there I can't. I'm not saying like, I'm not gonna stay with it and be like I can't. I'm never gonna be able to do these things, because, you know.

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Dave Lizotte: You know it's.

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gregc: Staying away from it.

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Dave Lizotte: There's so many dimensions to it. Because one thing I was thinking about well.

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Dave Lizotte: I'm not gonna I'm not gonna jump into every single conflict. Right? So I am gonna have to pick and choose what? What ones are worth my time, what ones feel necessary.

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Dave Lizotte: And I'm also going to have to accept that like, yeah, I'm still going to have anxiety even when I do those things. I'm going to plan for that anxiety. So it doesn't come as a shock goes, hey? I faced my

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Dave Lizotte: that my conflict avoidant fear. But you know I still feel anxiety. Of course I'm gonna still.

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gregc: It's okay.

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Dave Lizotte: Something that produces me anxiety. Yes, totally okay. It's probably less anxiety than if I don't do it, and I just think about it for hours.

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Dave Lizotte: But then I'm gonna also have to accept that. There's gonna be times where, hey? I just don't feel up to

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Dave Lizotte: embracing this conflict today. And I'm probably going to avoid it. And I'm gonna have to be okay with that. So there's so many different things that go even into the the one theme.

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gregc: Just changing the way you sort of just accepting that it's gonna be there and like not, and not wishing it wasn't there. Like, all right. I'm gonna approach my values. I'm gonna I'm gonna live my life with carrying this with me. It's with me.

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gregc: but it's

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gregc: I don't have to try to get rid of it anymore. It's just kind of it's, it's just a part of me. And like, can I do things with it? There? Yeah. So

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gregc: I mean, it's it's loosing in its grip already, and and the anxiety is already lowered. And I mean, it's it's and we're still just talking about acceptance.

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Dave Lizotte: And the biggest thing with it, too, though, is also accepting that because it's something that I experience

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Dave Lizotte: doesn't mean I'm

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Dave Lizotte: a negative, you know some other negative distort, distorted thought like.

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Dave Lizotte: you can imagine all the names that I call myself when I feel anxiety, because I don't want to go into this, do this thing that could potentially lead to a conflict. You can only imagine the negative thoughts going through my head about myself.

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gregc: I bet you're saying some pretty nasty things, Dave, and we don't like that.

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Dave Lizotte: So that's another thing to accept.

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gregc: Okay, so number 2,

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gregc: cognitive diffusion. Now, this is one that we've kind of already talked about a little bit. But if you remember what diffusion is scientifically, it's moving particles from an area of higher concentration to an area of lower concentration. So

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gregc: what that's saying from a psychological point of view again with these words in Hayes like thanks a lot. But what he always really saying is, when you have a thought like the typical, like an Ocd. Thought, or an anxiety thought, it's about.

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gregc: you know, that mindfulness approach of having those thoughts looking at those thoughts, looking at those coins without judgment.

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gregc: and just approaching the thought that is useful, or seems like it makes sense to you, or is true, you know, or or reflects your values, and the ones that don't. They're just thoughts. They're just kind of.

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Dave Lizotte: So this takes a level of awareness, though sometimes right cause some people. And I I heard an example earlier today, and I thought it was a good example, because I hadn't really thought about this. So if you ever have an experience with someone who maybe

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Dave Lizotte: talks loud

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Dave Lizotte: is like a loud talk, or maybe their family. Maybe it's like a cultural thing. Maybe they have, like a very active household, and everybody's talk like talks loud because you have to in that household, because everybody's talking.

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Dave Lizotte: and maybe you're from a quiet background or or a background where, like Loud meant angry. And there was maybe a lot of like arguing in your in your background. And that kind of makes anytime you hear loud voices. Maybe you associate that in your brain

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Dave Lizotte: to conflict, to potential violence. Who knows what it could be?

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Dave Lizotte: You now have to understand that when that person is talking that doesn't mean violence is happening. Aggression is gonna happen. Anything bad is gonna happen. So you have to do what you said. You have to now find a more useful thought that would connect to this situation because you're not in that same situation. So that's kind of like that. That's kind of the basis of this right.

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gregc: Absolutely. Yeah. Like, you know.

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gregc: I like that kind of thing that you're talking about there like I'm almost thinking about. You know, when you're driving in a car and a lot of people. There's a lot of chatter, and there's a lot of like, you know.

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gregc: Maybe there's a baby crying in the back, whatever it is like. You're driving your car. And you got all these people in your car. You're still able to go where you need to go. You're still able to drive that car and all those things going on in the back. They can.

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gregc: They can kind of become.

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gregc: you know. You could you could either, you know. Oh, what's this guy in the passenger seat saying, why is he being so loud? Why is that driving me nuts? Why is that baby crying? You could do all that. You can investigate, all that you can get tangled up with all that, or if your job is to drive the car safely and get somewhere where you want to be.

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gregc: Then you can do that, too. You can focus. You can have all those things. You can accept that all that is going on in the car

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gregc: and drive and be where you want to be, and that's where that become.

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gregc: you know. That's sort of the mindfulness aspect of this, and that's we don't have to talk about mindfulness. We've talked about it a million times.

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gregc: but mindfulness, obviously, we're kind of explaining it in a lot of ways, anyway, is a huge part of this. And when you say awareness, you're absolutely right, because that's essentially what mindfulness is.

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gregc: The next part is the self as a context. Now, here's a heady thing. But when we've talked about Freud, this is id ego superego. All we're really saying here is that people are more than their thoughts, feelings, and experiences like if someone has a thought and it's a negative thought, maybe it's a thought that like, you know, I've talked about

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gregc: patients who have new babies. And they have like this weird thought, they're gonna hurt their baby, or they're gonna whatever, and they're horrified by it, and they can't understand that. It's just a thought. And maybe it's highlighting their value. And and the thoughts, just the subconscious is a weird way of making us

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gregc: get our attention right, and we don't need to get into all that. All this is really to say that this is an important part of act is that

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gregc: you were. Gonna have all kinds of thoughts. You're gonna have all kinds of feelings. You're gonna have all kinds of experiences.

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gregc: and none of that is you. You navigate that the way you you see fit, and you you the most important about this thing, because this is acceptance, right? So you don't. You're not. Gonna you're not. Gonna choose your experiences. You're not. Gonna choose your thoughts. You're not gonna choose your feelings.

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gregc: but what you are going, you're gonna have to accept those. But what you can choose is your values and your goals. And the act is accepting those thoughts and those feelings and those experiences, and committing to following your goals and your values despite them.

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gregc: Right? That's basically it. Yep.

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Dave Lizotte: So

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Dave Lizotte: with act

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Dave Lizotte: they also suggest that we can't experience all of life if we try to cut out

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Dave Lizotte: the one like the negative part, right?

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Dave Lizotte: So that

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Dave Lizotte: I think that's a really important message. So

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Dave Lizotte: it kind of goes back to an earlier thing, you said. And so like a lot of this is just us reiterating kind of similar things to how we started this podcast but if you try to cut out pain, if you try to cut out panic and discomfort.

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Dave Lizotte: You're not having a full life experience. It's kind of like that thing we said a long time ago on here. I know exactly.

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gregc: That we're talking about.

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Dave Lizotte: You know, you need to have a little bit of like

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Dave Lizotte: suffering in order to really understand what joy feels right like. Right.

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gregc: Yeah, like it. Like, if someone was about to put you down on earth. And they said, You can live a life with no pain, panic, or discomfort like you said.

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gregc: and that might sound good. But you also have no joy, no love, no happiness, no laughter like. Would you like? Would you choose that like, would you choose to feel nothing? Or would you choose to feel everything? That's what this act is kind of all about? It's like, yeah, you're gonna have some discomfort. You're gonna have some pain. You're gonna have some panic, sure. But you're gonna to have that is saying that you're gonna have everything, too. If you want joy in your life, you want happiness, you have to accept that. You're gonna have to have the other side of that, too.

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gregc: to have a full life, to experience the whole human experience. And that's how you learn like there's this great woods, Brothers, song, Happiness Jones, and the whole premise is like, I've never learned a thing being happy. And that's true.

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gregc: right? All like sometimes, like those hard things that happen to you, those painful moments in your life, those breakups, those you know, a period in your life where you're judged hardships, or whatever like. Years later, you're kind of like, sometimes thankful for those moments, because they created you who you are today, and without them you would have been someone totally different.

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gregc: And it's not. It's not always that way, but it's certainly sometimes that way, like holocaust. Survivors seem to have felt that way right like they wouldn't have been as good of a person, or had such a rich life had that not happened to them. And that's not saying that they are glad that happened. If they could do it all over again, they would. But it's they are saying that it's a hard thing to say that because that happened I am a better person.

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Dave Lizotte: Did you know that Pharrell wrote that song happy

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Dave Lizotte: because he was coming out of a depressive state? And he was feeling joy.

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gregc: No, I didn't.

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Dave Lizotte: Oh, that's cause that didn't happen. But that would have been a cool story to tell, wouldn't it?

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gregc: And I was like, okay, cause I'm thinking of like minions. I see all the minions running around. I'm like they're happy.

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Dave Lizotte: They are, I guess.

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gregc: They are.

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Dave Lizotte: I've never seen minions. But yeah.

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gregc: Oh, it's good stuff, right? So the again, what we're talking about here is

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gregc: and well, the next part of this is something we mentioned, too, is like identifying your values. We talked about how you do that.

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gregc: But act is all about committed action, goal setting, exposure, right

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gregc: skill, development, which the skills are kind of.

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gregc: There's a lot of metaphors. This is, there's a lot of metaphors. Did you see, did you come across any like interventions that you really liked with this, or.

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Dave Lizotte: With the skill development piece. No.

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gregc: Yeah, I mean, there's 1 that I like that I used a few times where, like you kind of use the wall behind you. And you, when people are having, like

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gregc: you know, intrusive thoughts, or you know, they're feeling really depressed. You kind of use it for everything. And you and you could say like, Hey, look! This wall's behind me right. I don't like that. It's here, and that's your depression. That's your intrusive thoughts. That's your anxiety. That's whatever.

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gregc: And you could say I can like kind of push against it, and I can, and I can hate that. It's here, and I can, as long as I have my hand on it, and I'm trying to remove it. I'm engaged with it, but if I turn around and I let it be there, then I can. I can still focus on whatever I want to focus on. I can still do the things I want to do and have that wall be there. I might not like that. It's there.

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gregc: but I have to accept that. It's there. I can't move it, but that doesn't mean that I'm stuck here with it. That doesn't mean I have to constantly try to fix it. That doesn't mean I have to work on it forever. But I can accept that it's there and move on and live my life. Sure.

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gregc: So basically, the idea is that it's it's

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gregc: it's counterproductive to try and control painful emotions or experiences, you can't do it.

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gregc: So the suppression of these feelings, trying to do that causes more issues. So instead of trying to change the way you think you can use your values, the things that matter to you as a compass, to commit to action, and by changing your behavior, the things that you're doing

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gregc: the thoughts and experiences that were troubling you are changed by

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gregc: your new attitude, your new confidence, your new emotional state like, think about, you know I've been going to the gym a lot, if I'm like upset

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gregc: before, like I'm having a hard day or I'm I'm you know. Maybe I got into a like an argument with someone at home. I'm upset before I go to the gym. Right? But it's a value of mine. I go there and I am I change? You know what I mean.

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Dave Lizotte: And you're so cool, Greg, and you're so cool.

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gregc: Thank you. Thank you.

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Dave Lizotte: I've been going. I've been going to the gym a lot, and.

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gregc: I mean, I don't know if you guys have noticed. I know this is on Youtube. Now.

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Dave Lizotte: All they. It's hard to notice when you're just a talking head, so.

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gregc: My head hasn't shrunk as big a head as ever.

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Dave Lizotte: Gonna when you said we said something at the office about it. And it's like, you're all head now.

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Dave Lizotte: Yeah.

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gregc: I get it.

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Dave Lizotte: You hated that. That's cool.

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gregc: I didn't love it.

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Dave Lizotte: You know it's a fun activity is to ask like, if you ever, if you work with adolescents, or if you have an adolescent. I guess you could ask them ask them about their values, and also ask them like, you know, who are you like?

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Dave Lizotte: Strip away all your friends strip away. You know these other outside influences. Who are you underneath all that? All that? And I think it's fun to like

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Dave Lizotte: get adolescents to start thinking about that because

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Dave Lizotte: a lot of times they don't.

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Dave Lizotte: and they become everybody around them right and like. It's not to say that any of us are void of like doing that to some extent, like we all do it.

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Dave Lizotte: We're all influenced, obviously, by external, that's impossible not to. But like sometimes they over identify us as the people that they surround themselves with, and sometimes that changes if they bounce friend groups, or if they get into new interests, and suddenly. They're only that thing.

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Dave Lizotte: So it is a fun little thing to start to get them to challenge themselves and think about that.

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gregc: I honestly think, Dave, like the more the longer you know we kind of do this, and and the more

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gregc: interventions and theories. Well theories more than anything we kind of really introduced. I really do think that it basically comes down to that thing that we've talked about

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gregc: and multiple times where becoming someone you admire

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gregc: is the best advice you can give somebody, because that what are we talking about here? It's like, all right. So we're identifying your values. That's essentially finding out what you admire and becoming that.

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gregc: And it supersedes everything. So it's like you could feel all these things inside all these things could have happened to you. But if, despite that, you try to become someone you admire.

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gregc: I mean, it just seems like, that's what this is all about. That's what any of this is all about.

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Dave Lizotte: For sure.

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gregc: And so values are the key to that. And and we've been saying that for a really long time, and no one's really kinda

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gregc: no one's riding along with us.

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Dave Lizotte: It's giving us the credit we deserve. Yeah.

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Dave Lizotte: you guys better watch out. Greg's been going to the gym.

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gregc: It's a new value.

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Dave Lizotte: So another super important piece of this is something we touched on earlier. But I just want to go more into it.

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Dave Lizotte: There is no moment or feeling that is permanent

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Dave Lizotte: for good or for bad, you know so intense feelings that we might feel like when we fall in love. Those feelings of euphoria as we talked about in the love languages, episode.

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Dave Lizotte: or like the 1st time you might hold your your baby, or you know little things like that, like those intense, strong, positive motions. I got news for you eventually. They're going to. They're going to change your relationship to that. Experience will eventually change. It's not like it's you're gonna like, no longer be in love. But that feeling of love is not going to be as intense

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Dave Lizotte: forever. Right? So the same is gonna obviously go for intense negative feelings like over time.

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Dave Lizotte: They will, they will change. So you have to remind yourself of that. And that will hopefully help your relationship with whatever that intense experience. Hopefully, you'll you'll

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Dave Lizotte: learn that that it is.

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Dave Lizotte: We'll eventually going to

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Dave Lizotte: adjust and become less intense, and that will hopefully help with some of the the suffering you have with that emotion.

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gregc: That is like

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gregc: so great like I I kind of like it. I I screenshot a poem today.

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gregc: and you just made me think of it I was, I swear, on everything. I was not going to bring this up. But this is a Robert Frost poem, and it goes. It's so short ready

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gregc: the way a crow shook down on me the dust of snow from a headlocked tree.

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gregc: from a hemlock tree

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gregc: has given my heart a change of mood and saved some part of a day. I had rude. So basically, this guy's walking in the forest. A crow. He's all upset. A crow shakes off a little bit of snow and lands on him, and now he's in a good mood. So it's like, you're right, like moods are so fleeting. Yeah. And we we know that about good moods. We know that about like when we're in bliss, where we're in like the zone. Or maybe we're like, I don't know what makes you happy.

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gregc: It's hard to remember right. But, like like you have these moments of like happiness, and they're so fleeting. But they're so important. But we forget that like when you have these moments of intense negativity, those intense moments.

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gregc: they don't last as long as you think. Sometimes it's just thinking about it. That lasts a little bit longer, and like wondering when it's gonna happen again. And like all these things right, you know. But you're right. It's.

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Dave Lizotte: You ever stub your toe.

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gregc: Yeah.

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Dave Lizotte: You stub your toe.

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Dave Lizotte: and for a brief moment, in time.

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gregc: You must throw up.

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Dave Lizotte: You're like, Oh! And then like. And then you know what I what I've learned to do over time before I ever learned about any of this stuff, I started to tell myself. It's only pain. It will go away. It's only pain. It will go away, and it has decreased that experience the amount of time that experience feels like for me, because I'm now channeling my thought into like, this is going to dissipate. Yeah and it. And eventually it does. And then I'm like reminded and reinforced that. Oh, yeah, that's that is true.

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Dave Lizotte: So some good things that like this is this

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Dave Lizotte: train of thought is helpful, for well, this totally reminded me 1st off, when we did the self injurious behavior episode and the whole riding the wave, we talk approach to cutting or any kind of self harm. It's an urge that urge will eventually dissipate. You have to just anticipate that that urge is going to get intense and do your best to hold off on it on acting on it, because you don't have to. That urge can't force you to do anything. It's just a feeling.

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Dave Lizotte: And then you will see, then be reinforced by the fact that you did not act on it. Cravings is another thing, though, that this can be useful, for so if you have issues with like

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Dave Lizotte: cravings for food or cravings for anything,

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Dave Lizotte: they may be uncomfortable. It may be intense, but it's a transient event, meaning it's gonna come in like a wave, just like I just talked about. It will have a crest, and then it will recede. So if you envision

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Dave Lizotte: that intense emotion almost like a wave.

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Dave Lizotte: you can almost envision when it gets to that peak, and then it suddenly starts to recede.

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gregc: And you're teaching yourself something great there, too, like the like. You're not letting your emotions change the path that you're on. You're like this is gonna happen. And I'm gonna it's gonna make me feel a certain way. But I'm not gonna let my emotions drive like, put me in a different direction. If that's not where I want to.

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Dave Lizotte: And empowerment, empowerment.

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gregc: Howard.

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Dave Lizotte: Word of empowerment, that.

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gregc: Yeah.

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Dave Lizotte: Earlier. And you know what's funny, because, like, I know, act goes against a little bit against control.

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Dave Lizotte: But it goes to that statement that you said earlier. You can't change everything around you, but you can have control over how you act. Right? That's right. That's the last.

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gregc: Freedom. That's Frankel stuff like we. We only have control over our reactions and our attitude towards things. And that's powerful right. Whatever could happen to us.

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Dave Lizotte: This is exactly, you know. I know this is a little bit off topic. But like when I, when young kids come in and I hear that like they're being bullied. And they're like, you know, they're getting in trouble because they're

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Dave Lizotte: fighting back against the bully. It's never in my, you know I'm not suggesting that they allow someone to bully them. But I do often talk about this thing. It's like you don't have control over that other person. But you do have control over how much energy you give them, how much attention you give them. You got to think about the response they're looking for. And if you give them that response, they're just going to do it more and more and more and more right. It's the same thing for this negative, intense emotion. You're gonna it.

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Dave Lizotte: If you give it

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Dave Lizotte: what it wants, you're reinforcing it. So then the next time you're going to continue to feel it is going to be more intense.

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Dave Lizotte: And eventually, you know, trying to stop the behavior could be really challenging at some point. It's not going to get easier the longer you prolong it, or the more you reinforce it, so it is helpful to try to do it early on, but ultimately it will. It will never last forever.

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gregc: You can't.

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Dave Lizotte: So pain is another one because hurt, you know.

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Dave Lizotte: it hurts, but it's again. It's another transient event, and eventually it will that hurt or pain will dissipate.

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Dave Lizotte: Chronic pain is a tough one.

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Dave Lizotte: So because chronic pain does not necessarily

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Dave Lizotte: go away. Well, it doesn't go away. It's.

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gregc: No, but there is something.

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Dave Lizotte: To the chronic pain can change.

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gregc: What's interesting about the chronic pain aspect is so Stephen Hayes doesn't, doesn't have chronic pain. He's like he's like.

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Dave Lizotte: Exactly.

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gregc: Seventies are easy, but what he does have is the tinnitus.

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Dave Lizotte: Tinnitus. Yep.

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gregc: Yeah. So that is, I mean having to accept that and not change that. Yeah, like, like, think about that. That's like, so something I listened to with him this morning, and he talks about it. He's like

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gregc: he's like I was able to kind of accept this thing like this ringing in the ears to some people that can even like be like cause, like suicidal thoughts. And he and he learned to accept it.

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gregc: And and people were like, well, how that I've had! I have

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gregc: Tinnitus, and I am. I'm having a hard time accepting it. It's taking me a hell of a lot longer than a week, and he's like, well, it's taken me a lot longer than a week, too, because I've been working on this for like 40 years. This is my, this is my career, you know. But you know it is about

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gregc: how do I? I wish this wasn't here? How do I? How do I change this? How you know it's it's just one thing.

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Dave Lizotte: It changes your thoughts. I mean it changes your experience with that feeling.

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Dave Lizotte: Once you learn to anticipate it and expect it and understand that it's always going to be there. But I'm still going to move forward with my life and try to create a rich and meaningful life.

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Dave Lizotte: And that's what it's about. It's not denying that it's going to be there because that's fictitious. It's not avoiding it's not. I'm in pain. So I'm just going to give up. It's no, I have pain.

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Dave Lizotte: but that's not going to stop me from still trying to find some moments of joy in my day, and then know that's a super challenging. And almost you know, it's it's 1 of those things that I like. I wouldn't.

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Dave Lizotte: I would be really cautious of how I word that to someone who experiences chronic pain because I understand that that is like something that's never going away. And that person's going to experience that for the rest of their life.

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gregc: Killed her.

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Dave Lizotte: Minimize.

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gregc: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. What's not?

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Dave Lizotte: To minimize. But it is to just point out that, yeah, you're right. What is the alternative.

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gregc: Like your life is going to suck. You're not gonna have any joy ever again. This is always going to be terrible like it's

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gregc: you know by by sort of believing something.

473
00:50:21.410 --> 00:50:40.090
gregc: by believing something and having like optimism with something is, goes a long way to making it true. Like, if you're thinking I have this chronic pain, but I'm going to still have a kind of find joy in my life. I'm gonna still find meaning in my life. Maybe I'll try to like, alleviate the suffering in others. Maybe I'll try to find a way to kind of like. How do I talk to more doctors or go to more.

474
00:50:40.090 --> 00:50:53.980
gregc: You know specialists to figure out. Maybe this could one day be relieved. But living your way, your life, like in a hopeful manner is better than saying, it's just always going to be like this. I'm going to get worse and worse and worse. I'm going to die because that's like, what's that's not life.

475
00:50:53.980 --> 00:50:54.750
Dave Lizotte: So

476
00:50:55.110 --> 00:51:16.050
Dave Lizotte: one way that like. So I live with someone with chronic pain. And it's it's super, you know, debilitating for her. And then it's it's the worst. And one thing that she does that I actually think I as I say it out loud. I appreciate it probably more than I even acknowledge to her. But, like

477
00:51:16.470 --> 00:51:25.409
Dave Lizotte: she often says, like I want to do things now while I still can, which I think is a great way to look at it. Even though you know it's still painful.

478
00:51:25.730 --> 00:51:35.140
Dave Lizotte: But also some days are worse than others. So on those days that aren't so bad, take advantage of those days and the days that are worse. Then do what you need to do on those days, and that's

479
00:51:35.370 --> 00:51:51.650
Dave Lizotte: you know. I think that's a really interesting way to look at it as well like, I'm feeling better than normal today. So today I can take on. So you know this load. So you know, there's different ways to have relationships with the pain that you experience and you just have to.

480
00:51:52.325 --> 00:51:56.950
Dave Lizotte: I don't know. Find ways to focus on that relationship with it.

481
00:51:57.380 --> 00:52:02.559
gregc: All right and like. Finally, let's talk a little bit about this last, you know core principle, which I.

482
00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:10.769
gregc: So when people, when we were saying before that, you know, people have issues, take issues with act, especially Dr. Burns, who we're huge fans of.

483
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:23.130
gregc: and maybe part of the reason why he takes. You know he doesn't have the the best things to say about actors, because it kind of threatens his life's work. But I think there's a place for both of them. I think both are very useful

484
00:52:23.230 --> 00:52:35.199
gregc: anyways, functional functional contextualism. So like, that's that's a crazy sort of phrase that just basically means that all behaviors have a context, that's it, and a function so like

485
00:52:35.220 --> 00:52:45.239
gregc: your behaviors made sense once upon a time. And maybe that's evolutionary. Maybe that's you know they made, you know, developed when you're in childhood, right? Like the

486
00:52:45.250 --> 00:53:00.230
gregc: the emotions that you have are, you know, they're there for a reason, and maybe they're useful, and maybe they're not so like, take take what's useful and leave what's not. That's basically what it's saying. And also that there's no universal truth. And

487
00:53:00.300 --> 00:53:02.710
gregc: like we were like, we're kind of saying before, like

488
00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:11.960
gregc: what you believe to be true goes a long way to being true. Like, I think of this example as like like a couple if we were lost in the woods, Dave.

489
00:53:12.060 --> 00:53:15.729
gregc: if we were like, hey, if we walk this way, we're eventually going to get out of here.

490
00:53:15.910 --> 00:53:18.229
gregc: That might save us right.

491
00:53:18.560 --> 00:53:28.479
gregc: And if our other belief was, if we believed it was true that, like we're too deep in the woods. There's nowhere we can go to get help like if we believe that, then we're screwed so like what you believe to be true

492
00:53:28.560 --> 00:53:33.650
gregc: really goes a long way to being true and helpful, so I don't know there isn't. There is a

493
00:53:33.670 --> 00:53:38.860
gregc: a tinge of optimism here which I don't think there's anything wrong with. I think that's a good thing. Sure.

494
00:53:39.050 --> 00:53:39.920
gregc: you know.

495
00:53:39.920 --> 00:54:05.809
Dave Lizotte: And one other thing, and I know I think we touched on it, but I don't think we really delved into it too much, but, like the idea of the universal truth, there's no universal truth. But that's also very true within our the language that we use, and it's important to like. Be mindful of that, and much like what we do with with Cbt and the cognitive distortions, and how we reframe them. That's also sort of president

496
00:54:07.170 --> 00:54:11.319
Dave Lizotte: present in in act because

497
00:54:11.820 --> 00:54:27.830
Dave Lizotte: one way that we do that sometimes is we use this like, this global internal like language, such as like, I am depressed. Being an example versus I am feeling depressed today, or I mean feel I have been experiencing depression.

498
00:54:28.100 --> 00:54:30.879
Dave Lizotte: People say I am depressed. Think about that statement.

499
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:31.480
gregc: I know.

500
00:54:31.480 --> 00:54:33.140
Dave Lizotte: I am depressed.

501
00:54:33.140 --> 00:54:34.190
gregc: Am depression.

502
00:54:34.190 --> 00:54:35.690
Dave Lizotte: It's like who I am. Yeah.

503
00:54:35.690 --> 00:54:36.250
gregc: Yeah.

504
00:54:36.250 --> 00:54:37.040
Dave Lizotte: Yeah,

505
00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:42.100
Dave Lizotte: and you know, one of the things I heard about that is like which I thought was a great point is

506
00:54:42.250 --> 00:54:46.470
Dave Lizotte: it makes it feel unchangeable because you are it so. How do you change that right.

507
00:54:46.470 --> 00:54:47.120
gregc: Right.

508
00:54:47.120 --> 00:54:49.380
Dave Lizotte: Versus. I'm feeling depressed.

509
00:54:49.910 --> 00:54:50.430
Dave Lizotte: It's.

510
00:54:50.430 --> 00:55:11.739
gregc: And so I think Dr. Burns could take comfort in that. And I think what his critique of this would be is like if he listened to this podcast, at the end he'd be like, oh, so they had this cognitive distortion. I am depressed, and we challenged that distortion and changed it to. I am depressed. I am feeling depressed. And now we feel significantly better, because we're changing that thought into something

511
00:55:11.740 --> 00:55:20.499
gregc: that's a little more palatable. And it's like, yeah. Kinda but also it's more than that, too. Right? It's more than that. It's almost like.

512
00:55:20.500 --> 00:55:22.090
Dave Lizotte: It's a piece of it, but it's more than that.

513
00:55:22.090 --> 00:55:24.400
gregc: Right. It's almost like when the

514
00:55:24.640 --> 00:55:29.670
gregc: when you tried all the cognitive distortions, when you tried restructuring all the thoughts.

515
00:55:29.830 --> 00:55:40.640
gregc: And you can't change anymore. There's just still this thing there. It's like, well, what do you do when you can't do anything anymore? You have to accept, and that's the part that's sort of left out of. Cbt.

516
00:55:40.700 --> 00:55:45.170
gregc: yeah. And maybe this is, this is like a, you know, next step or.

517
00:55:45.170 --> 00:55:46.330
Dave Lizotte: For some people. Yeah.

518
00:55:46.330 --> 00:55:49.169
gregc: An amendment, you know I mean I.

519
00:55:49.170 --> 00:55:53.099
Dave Lizotte: You know, when we both 1st started this, podcast. I think

520
00:55:53.210 --> 00:55:56.810
Dave Lizotte: one of the things we emphasized was like, we don't

521
00:55:56.940 --> 00:56:02.029
Dave Lizotte: go too heavy into one theory versus the next, because we understand the idea that, like.

522
00:56:02.100 --> 00:56:05.739
Dave Lizotte: there's no person that that one theory, I mean.

523
00:56:06.110 --> 00:56:09.459
Dave Lizotte: there's no one theory that works for every single person, right.

524
00:56:10.230 --> 00:56:11.300
gregc: Yeah, absolutely.

525
00:56:11.300 --> 00:56:12.310
Dave Lizotte: I believe that.

526
00:56:12.310 --> 00:56:13.659
gregc: A 1,000%.

527
00:56:13.660 --> 00:56:24.019
Dave Lizotte: Okay? So that's why I think like this has importance, and this has a place. Cbt has importance. It has a place. Dbt has importance as a place.

528
00:56:24.384 --> 00:56:34.390
Dave Lizotte: I'm just throwing out letters for people who don't understand them. There, you know there's an episode about Cbt. Please go listen to that if you haven't yet cognitive behavioral therapy, it's so important

529
00:56:35.140 --> 00:56:39.769
Dave Lizotte: acceptance. Commitment therapy is so important. And I'm glad we were able to do this episode.

530
00:56:39.820 --> 00:56:44.519
Dave Lizotte: And at some point we'll definitely do dialectical behavioral therapy, because I think that's very important as well.

531
00:56:44.520 --> 00:56:48.829
gregc: It is, it is. And now, Dave, now now having said that

532
00:56:49.430 --> 00:56:55.109
gregc: because I do firmly believe that no therapist should be married to a single

533
00:56:55.210 --> 00:57:02.359
gregc: theoretical approach. But if you could heal the most people with one theoretical approach, which one do you think it would be.

534
00:57:05.290 --> 00:57:06.500
Dave Lizotte: I'm still

535
00:57:07.390 --> 00:57:09.540
Dave Lizotte: probably going to say Cbt. For.

536
00:57:09.540 --> 00:57:11.390
gregc: Me too! Me too.

537
00:57:11.390 --> 00:57:26.499
Dave Lizotte: Do think that act is is really nice for those individuals who are. I'm not, I'm not going to say treatment resistant, but just really struggling with some lingering things that probably are just part of their personality that aren't necessarily even going to go away.

538
00:57:26.500 --> 00:57:30.129
gregc: When it's time to really get out of the head. And and I don't know because

539
00:57:30.420 --> 00:57:35.469
gregc: it both Cbt has components of like values focused, you know.

540
00:57:35.470 --> 00:57:35.950
Dave Lizotte: Oh, yeah.

541
00:57:35.950 --> 00:57:45.589
gregc: For sure, like behavioral activations. Basically, you know, you know, doing the things that used to that were used to be meaningful to you

542
00:57:45.640 --> 00:57:53.299
gregc: and that you don't enjoy anymore. And even though you don't feel like doing that, and then hoping that you know, the mood will follow the action. That's

543
00:57:53.470 --> 00:57:58.911
gregc: that's part of Cbt, so no, I I agree that Cbt is still

544
00:58:00.160 --> 00:58:09.517
gregc: I mean pretty much because it's so. It's so broad and and big, and it covers so much. This is, and it's it's simplified, too, like it's it's simple.

545
00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:11.320
Dave Lizotte: What I've always appreciated about it.

546
00:58:11.320 --> 00:58:11.820
gregc: Yeah.

547
00:58:11.820 --> 00:58:13.490
Dave Lizotte: Very easy to understand.

548
00:58:14.400 --> 00:58:16.130
gregc: Yeah, but this is not

549
00:58:16.330 --> 00:58:16.990
gregc: yeah.

550
00:58:17.310 --> 00:58:26.299
gregc: it's not, it's just not. And and when David Burns, who was a student of Beck, who created Cbt.

551
00:58:27.950 --> 00:58:38.959
gregc: When he had Stephen Hayes on his. Podcast he was really kind of, I don't know rough with him and critical, maybe because he was threatened, but maybe because he thought he was

552
00:58:39.750 --> 00:58:41.840
gregc: pretentious. I don't.

553
00:58:41.840 --> 00:58:53.639
Dave Lizotte: No, I mean well, maybe maybe those were thoughts he had. I can't speak for him. But what he said in that episode was exactly how I think probably a lot of people were were feeling.

554
00:58:53.860 --> 00:58:55.360
Dave Lizotte: David Burns.

555
00:58:55.590 --> 00:59:03.532
Dave Lizotte: if like, you're not familiar with him by now, you know, we've mentioned him a number of times. He's really big in, like the Cbt.

556
00:59:03.970 --> 00:59:05.020
Dave Lizotte: treatment.

557
00:59:05.090 --> 00:59:21.849
Dave Lizotte: And he has this whole team. Cbt work that he does. So he's really big into it. He wrote the books, feeling good and feeling great, which you know we're both big fans of. But his whole thing is about making these things, not for therapists.

558
00:59:21.850 --> 00:59:22.110
gregc: Of the.

559
00:59:22.110 --> 00:59:35.089
Dave Lizotte: For anybody, so you can pick up a book and you can work on yourself. And you can, you know, work with a therapist, and they can. It's supposed to be easy to understand. And his big thing to Stephen Hayes was like.

560
00:59:35.360 --> 00:59:43.649
Dave Lizotte: if people are listening to this, and they're not in this field. They're not going to understand this. Why would you create something that people don't understand? How does that benefit them?

561
00:59:44.010 --> 00:59:46.429
gregc: You're like, why would you say functional contextualism.

562
00:59:46.860 --> 00:59:47.395
Dave Lizotte: Yeah.

563
00:59:48.590 --> 00:59:49.540
Dave Lizotte: right.

564
00:59:49.540 --> 00:59:50.189
gregc: I mean.

565
00:59:50.190 --> 00:59:59.870
Dave Lizotte: So I mean, I think it's a great argument, I think. Why are we making things solely for therapists to understand, and even us like. Sometimes we might not get it

566
01:00:00.386 --> 01:00:03.720
Dave Lizotte: rather than just for the common person.

567
01:00:03.920 --> 01:00:06.359
Dave Lizotte: if it's for them. In the 1st place.

568
01:00:07.110 --> 01:00:08.710
gregc: Yeah, like, I mean, if

569
01:00:08.830 --> 01:00:16.600
gregc: you know any field right? I mean, like, if it's the Hvac or the plumber or the electrician, they all have their like

570
01:00:16.850 --> 01:00:22.090
gregc: acronyms in their lingo that, like no one really understands unless you're in that field, and we have that too.

571
01:00:22.090 --> 01:00:22.960
Dave Lizotte: Most men do.

572
01:00:22.960 --> 01:00:27.430
gregc: Postmen do, too, and so do just about anything you could think of right.

573
01:00:27.430 --> 01:00:29.179
Dave Lizotte: What would be postman, lingo.

574
01:00:30.670 --> 01:00:31.990
gregc: ubbm.

575
01:00:32.130 --> 01:00:34.049
gregc: Everyone would know what that was to take a.

576
01:00:34.050 --> 01:00:35.270
Dave Lizotte: You have to go to the bathroom.

577
01:00:35.270 --> 01:00:41.689
gregc: Yup, that's exactly right. That's that's just like junk, junk, mail. What else.

578
01:00:41.690 --> 01:00:43.589
Dave Lizotte: Qppvm's junk mail.

579
01:00:43.590 --> 01:00:44.950
gregc: Yeah. A. And K,

580
01:00:45.060 --> 01:00:46.859
gregc: IA

581
01:00:47.050 --> 01:00:50.800
gregc: insufficient address attempted, not known.

582
01:00:50.800 --> 01:00:54.510
Dave Lizotte: Like your your area, that you that you have.

583
01:00:54.510 --> 01:00:55.600
gregc: That's a route.

584
01:00:55.920 --> 01:00:57.319
Dave Lizotte: Oh, wow!

585
01:00:58.550 --> 01:00:59.410
gregc: Petty stuff.

586
01:00:59.410 --> 01:01:00.639
Dave Lizotte: Your beat, you call it your.

587
01:01:00.640 --> 01:01:01.320
gregc: Be.

588
01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:02.509
Dave Lizotte: I'm gonna go walk my beat.

589
01:01:02.890 --> 01:01:09.069
gregc: Yeah, now, like, yeah. But you see, right? Like that makes perfect sense, like every every single thing has a like

590
01:01:09.090 --> 01:01:15.099
gregc: its own lingo. And how would you understand that if you're not in the field? So I think when it comes to mental health, we should kind of have like

591
01:01:15.270 --> 01:01:19.579
gregc: a universal language that we can kind of all you know, or just keep it simple.

592
01:01:19.830 --> 01:01:23.719
gregc: like Cbt does, tries to, although cognitive distortion is a little weird, too.

593
01:01:24.720 --> 01:01:30.410
Dave Lizotte: But when you, when you give people, I've I've given the cognitive distortion sheet to people.

594
01:01:30.410 --> 01:01:30.710
gregc: They love.

595
01:01:30.710 --> 01:01:37.929
Dave Lizotte: And like young patients, old patients, everybody looks at. And they're like, Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that. So they get it.

596
01:01:37.930 --> 01:01:38.640
gregc: Is a big.

597
01:01:38.640 --> 01:01:45.439
Dave Lizotte: Estimate that that is an easy thing to comprehend, because people look at that. I've seen it a thousand times. They just look at it. Like, yeah, I get that.

598
01:01:45.900 --> 01:01:47.899
gregc: Yeah, like, would you tell people like

599
01:01:47.960 --> 01:01:52.939
gregc: like one of his themes is, we didn't even get into it. But it's called pragmatic truth criterion

600
01:01:53.150 --> 01:01:56.250
gregc: like, really, you're gonna bring that up in session

601
01:01:56.670 --> 01:01:57.520
gregc: like

602
01:01:57.730 --> 01:01:58.780
gregc: that's

603
01:01:59.620 --> 01:02:08.690
gregc: I don't know. You know what I mean like like that that. And then what it means is like effective effectiveness of action is judged by how well it meets its goals like what

604
01:02:09.290 --> 01:02:10.290
gregc: just.

605
01:02:10.460 --> 01:02:11.630
Dave Lizotte: There's an easy way to explain this.

606
01:02:11.630 --> 01:02:12.470
gregc: Yeah.

607
01:02:12.470 --> 01:02:17.169
Dave Lizotte: But I guess that's what you know. He's creating the layout, and our work is to

608
01:02:17.450 --> 01:02:18.970
Dave Lizotte: make it understandable.

609
01:02:18.970 --> 01:02:21.209
gregc: Interpret it, I suppose. Yeah.

610
01:02:21.210 --> 01:02:22.679
Dave Lizotte: Here we! Here we are!

611
01:02:22.900 --> 01:02:23.600
gregc: Yeah.

612
01:02:24.450 --> 01:02:25.240
gregc: All right.

613
01:02:26.270 --> 01:02:27.620
gregc: Well, go.

614
01:02:27.930 --> 01:02:29.729
Dave Lizotte: That is, act.

615
01:02:29.730 --> 01:02:30.190
gregc: Is it.

616
01:02:30.398 --> 01:02:32.069
Dave Lizotte: Unless you have more to share on, act.

617
01:02:32.070 --> 01:02:35.400
gregc: No, I think that's it. I think we kind of got our. Our certainly got our

618
01:02:35.530 --> 01:02:39.710
gregc: our message across, especially because it basically is, it's

619
01:02:40.440 --> 01:02:45.240
gregc: accepting what you can't change and committing to action based on your values. That's basically it.

620
01:02:46.165 --> 01:02:48.239
Dave Lizotte: Before we fully wrap up today.

621
01:02:48.240 --> 01:02:48.880
gregc: Okay.

622
01:02:48.880 --> 01:02:53.529
Dave Lizotte: We received a review which.

623
01:02:53.540 --> 01:03:01.280
Dave Lizotte: if it will, my phone will. Of course it's not loading right now, for some reason. Our areas. So it was from

624
01:03:01.570 --> 01:03:03.000
Dave Lizotte: Chert Merman.

625
01:03:03.910 --> 01:03:05.619
Dave Lizotte: I hope that is his real name.

626
01:03:07.570 --> 01:03:15.799
Dave Lizotte: love this as a graduate student in mental health counseling. This is a fun way to reinforce things that I'm learning and dive into topics we haven't touched on yet.

627
01:03:15.860 --> 01:03:20.150
Dave Lizotte: Balanced on the palette with a blend of info insight and humor.

628
01:03:21.300 --> 01:03:22.410
gregc: That's really nice.

629
01:03:22.410 --> 01:03:28.710
Dave Lizotte: Nice to hear. You know, we've been saying this for a little bit, and, Greg, you reiterated it earlier today off air

630
01:03:29.089 --> 01:03:40.640
Dave Lizotte: we definitely seem to hit a demographic with grad students and students in general and psychology. It seems like which is really cool. For people who have been following us from day one.

631
01:03:40.760 --> 01:03:42.400
Dave Lizotte: You know, our

632
01:03:42.840 --> 01:03:57.859
Dave Lizotte: episodes have kind of always been like. I'm not gonna say they've always been the same, but it's always been this same kind of different blend of like one week. It's something serious the next week. It's like, maybe something paranormal. It's like we've always done that. What people probably don't know

633
01:03:58.310 --> 01:04:01.159
Dave Lizotte: is, before we even released our 1st episode.

634
01:04:01.270 --> 01:04:04.280
Dave Lizotte: we had recorded the

635
01:04:04.620 --> 01:04:11.130
Dave Lizotte: uncanny Valley episode with the intention of actually making something that was more like

636
01:04:11.680 --> 01:04:19.379
Dave Lizotte: heady or or directive, for like students, yep, like academic people

637
01:04:19.830 --> 01:04:33.409
Dave Lizotte: and like. But we wanted to do it in a way that we thought was fun. So our our goal initially was always to be geared toward more academic. But, like, I have to say, the amount of people we reach that aren't in academics also is like awesome.

638
01:04:33.410 --> 01:04:34.150
gregc: Yeah.

639
01:04:34.150 --> 01:04:50.290
Dave Lizotte: It's cool that we're like, we kind of hit that demographic. But then we also at times hear from people that have nothing to do with, you know the academic world, and have just like had their own experiences with things. And they're taking appreciation in these topics, or they're finding it interesting. So

640
01:04:51.280 --> 01:04:56.169
Dave Lizotte: I think we're kind of doing what we set out to do in many ways, and maybe even like

641
01:04:56.590 --> 01:04:58.200
Dave Lizotte: exceeded that. And so.

642
01:04:58.200 --> 01:05:00.830
gregc: Yeah. No matter what happens, it's it's been.

643
01:05:00.830 --> 01:05:01.803
Dave Lizotte: Wow! Wow!

644
01:05:02.290 --> 01:05:03.170
gregc: Great.

645
01:05:03.380 --> 01:05:05.530
Dave Lizotte: No matter what. What are you doing.

646
01:05:05.530 --> 01:05:07.980
gregc: No, not hey! Listen! I'm I'm in for the long haul. I don't care.

647
01:05:07.980 --> 01:05:10.739
Dave Lizotte: Why are you talking all about all this right now?

648
01:05:10.740 --> 01:05:12.451
gregc: I just mean like

649
01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:15.590
Dave Lizotte: What I just mean. What?

650
01:05:15.590 --> 01:05:16.880
gregc: It came out the wrong way.

651
01:05:16.880 --> 01:05:18.089
Dave Lizotte: Yeah, I will say.

652
01:05:18.090 --> 01:05:21.189
gregc: I I just mean that no matter what, if we get like.

653
01:05:21.190 --> 01:05:21.630
Dave Lizotte: And then.

654
01:05:21.630 --> 01:05:27.899
gregc: Wildly popular, or if we stay moderately popular, I'm I'm I'm in it for the long haul.

655
01:05:27.970 --> 01:05:31.539
gregc: no matter what cause I cause the people that cause all it takes is like

656
01:05:31.600 --> 01:05:35.289
gregc: every time someone leaves a review. I'm completely reinvigorated.

657
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Dave Lizotte: No, that's that is 100% factual. Right? There.

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gregc: One.

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Dave Lizotte: Person.

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gregc: Sat there and listened to us for an hour. One person.

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gregc: obviously it's more than one person, thank God! But like that person, took the time to be like, oh, my God, that that's kind of sat with me. Enough that I gotta like.

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gregc: Figure out how to use my phone and go through this thing and and write a review, and we appreciate the hell out of that.

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Dave Lizotte: And even like, I know, this week somebody had reached out, and they were talking to you a little bit about something that you had said, I just thought that was so cool, because it's like, you know. Not only

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Dave Lizotte: did this person listen to our episode, but then they actually picked up on this other thing that you talked about. They wanted to like, pick your brain about it, or just like kind of share that like, Oh, I'm you know. I'm have some relation to that thing, too. I just think that's really cool. The

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Dave Lizotte: the connection piece is is really cool. So thank you for to church merman for writing that review. I will, you know, always ask at the end of our episode, as always. If you do. If you haven't done so yet, we greatly appreciate ratings and reviews.

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Dave Lizotte: the review piece is more I. It is super helpful on apple podcasts. But like also, like Greg said, that is really also great for us to to know, because we just are always curious, like, are people connecting with this content? Is it still hitting its mark, you know, even if, like

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Dave Lizotte: 5 months ago, it seemed like it was, does that doesn't mean necessarily, you know, here we are today it's doing the same thing. So if you haven't yet we, we do encourage you to do so. We also have our subscriptions page which you can look up. It's on buzzsprout that's super helpful as well just to kind of help us, you know. Continue to build this this brand

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Dave Lizotte: and then again. If you're not watching us on Youtube, give it a give it a watch. Maybe maybe you'll like what you see. You know.

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gregc: At least to subscribe. You know what I mean, and that's our that's our Buddy Hunter Jones that was talking to us on

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gregc: Instagram from Georgia. Yep.

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Dave Lizotte: I was wondering if that was Chirp Merman. But maybe maybe it's 2 different.

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gregc: Maybe it is chart merman.

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Dave Lizotte: I don't know. But yeah, if you if you can subscribe, and you know, like on Youtube, that's also very helpful as well, anything is helpful. Yep, if everybody does one thing.

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gregc: The world will be a better place.

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Dave Lizotte: Then we're gonna ask you to do 2 things after that. But if everybody can just do one thing for now.

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gregc: I'm gonna go back to something we used to do. You guys are gonna love. Next week's episode.

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gregc: Alright.

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Dave Lizotte: Oh, boy.

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Dave Lizotte: it's.

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gregc: A real humdanger.

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Dave Lizotte: I can't even believe what it is.

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gregc: I know.

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Dave Lizotte: See you next week.

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gregc: Buckle up.

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Dave Lizotte: Alright! Everybody have a great night. We'll talk to you next week. Oh, and we are so close to spooky season, so you better believe we have a a packed, packed, packed agenda big shout out to our Buddy Joe, who suggested some episodes.

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Dave Lizotte: and I think he's gonna

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Dave Lizotte: be pretty happy that we are taking them up on at least one of those for next month to fit the spooky season.

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gregc: A long time. Friend of the podcast. Joe. Yeah.

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Dave Lizotte: But anybody else. If you guys have recommendations, things you want to hear us talk about things you want to learn about, let us know.

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Dave Lizotte: But yes, we'll see you guys next week.

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gregc: And one more thing before David before you do get off, though, if you are interested. And this all this Halloween talk is getting you amped up for like, oh, yeah, let's get some spooky episodes in. We've got a couple of years worth of spooky episodes. If you go back to the.

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Dave Lizotte: Oh, yeah.

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gregc: Previous October's, and who are.

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Dave Lizotte: Halloween, special.

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gregc: Even a Halloween special, you know. Let's get that.

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Dave Lizotte: That was, that was a very under underappreciated episode.

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gregc: It was a great episode. I almost feel like we should re-release that as a bonus.

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Dave Lizotte: Yeah. It didn't do. Great.

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gregc: It didn't do. Great didn't do great.

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Dave Lizotte: So they don't. We don't need to really.

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gregc: It has Greg Sharp into your original stories on there. And oh, yeah, we.

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Dave Lizotte: We read stories on that thing?

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Dave Lizotte: Yeah, we actually narrated stories.

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gregc: We sure did.

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Dave Lizotte: Did we ever actually talk about the the short film.

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gregc: We never talked about the short film either.

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Dave Lizotte: The heck.

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Dave Lizotte: Greg wrote a story, a short story which, with some help and some friends, we turned into a short film. It's like a what is it? 6 min.

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gregc: Yeah, it's pretty great.

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Dave Lizotte: 6 min film. It's on our Youtube page. It? Yep, I'm I'm not starring in it. I'm a little minor piece in it.

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gregc: Yep.

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Dave Lizotte: But yeah, check it out. If you guys haven't, it's it's something.

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gregc: It's something I mean.

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Dave Lizotte: It is something.

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gregc: You guys, it's only 6 min, so you can get through it.

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Dave Lizotte: Yeah, I mean, come on, you guys have done.

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gregc: Oh, and if you like our songs in the in the intro and outro, it's it's scored by the same, you know. 13th Ward social Club. Yeah. Fantastic work.

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Dave Lizotte: Who does our yeah, he does our podcast intro and outro. And he does that. And the song he did for that was a lot different than what we have on here. But I love that song actually that he did on the score.

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Dave Lizotte: And he's got some merch on his social media so want to plug that as well go on his shirt on his social media, buy a shirt, buy some music from him. He's he's great.

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gregc: Yeah, he's great.

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gregc: So.

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Dave Lizotte: All right, everybody. We'll let you go. Have a great night, see you? Next week.

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gregc: See you next week.

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Dave Lizotte: Peace! Out!

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gregc: Topic. Remember that.